Mixing Midi and digital audio with Sonar

[buddybologna]

Ok I just purchased a Delta 1010 with Sonar. Got everything set up...The sound is absolutely amazing I might add..

My question, being new to digital recording, is how to mix Midi with Digital audio. Basically I'm trying to record my guitar, and then lay down a drum track using session drummer.

I spent about 3 hours looking for information on this in the manual, and believe they cover this topic in less then a page.

Does anyone have any recommendations on the proper way to do this.....Or if not, does anyone know if the book "Sonar Power" covers this topic in detail.

[moskus]

Mixing audio and MIDI is what SONAR is made for, mabey that's the reason why it's not "well described" in the manual... I'm afraid I really don't know what you're asking.

Mixing audio and midi is quite simple. Create a midi-track and record your midi-stuff. Create a audiotrack, plug in your guitar, hit record, and there you go...

What, excactly, is the problem?

[AlChuck]

First question -- you say you have a Delta 1010, but you make no mention of what your MIDI instrument is... uh... you do realize that there is no MIDI synth in the Delta 1010, don't you?

[buddybologna]

I got as far as laying down a drum track through session drummer (I'm not using any kind of Midi Synth, I'm just using cakewalks's midi features until I can get my Roland V-Concert set, which will be around the time pigs fly). I guess what I'm really trying to do is get a quality drum sound with my guitar. When I play back a track, it sounds like I'm doing a soundtrack for an old Atari game or something. So what I did as an alternative was convert the midi drums to a wav file, with a freeware called WinGroove, and then inserted the wav file as a new audio track. It sounds pretty good like that, but I know that's not the proper way to do it.

[ChuckU]

Yeah, you need a sound module. Something to make the sound. Soundblasters have built-in synths, for example. The 1010 needs to connect to a sound source of some kind via the midi out.
However, in Sonar you should be able to access the software synths (ch 9 in the Sonar manual). If you use the Virtual Sound Canvas I think it acts like a general midi module, therefore drums should be found on channel 10. With the low latency on the 1010 you should be able to use this in real time.

[buddybologna]

Ok...Now the is where my lack of experience will really shine...I understand that that soundblasters have a built in synth...Would it be stupid to assume that I could plug my souncard via joystick port into the Delta 1010? Or is that just being redundant.

I probably need to pick up some books on midi..I think my lack of knowledge on midi is my main problem...Once I understand that I think everything else will make sense to me.

Thanks for the info on CH9, I'll read up on that when I get home.

[ChuckU]

Do you have a soundcard on your PC? Like a Soundblaster, in addition to the Delta. If so, does Sonar see it? I may be able to help you here.

I have a Soundblaster and Delta co-existing, but they really can't run well at the same time (different clocks). However you could switch back and forth in options->audio and change your playback and record master clocks.

I know this sounds convoluted, but it will make sense down the road.

So, let me know and I'll try to help.

[buddybologna]

I do have a soundblaster. It's intergrated on the motherboard, I have a free gameport available on it and I even purchased the cable for it (assuming that one day it may come in handy when I new what heck I was doing). It does get recognized by Sonar, but I'm not sure how well the 2 work together, I haven't gotten that far yet.

[Teacher]

if its sonar xl u can use the dxi's from drums sounds

[ChuckU]

Here's my suggestion- and I'm winging this as I go- Run a line out of the Soundblaster (probably 1/8" stereo) to your computer speakers or something. Make the SB your master playback clock in Options->Audio. Open up a midi file in Sonar. This could be a Cakewalk file, but make sure it has midi on it. Play back thru the soundblaster.

You have to make sure your master fader is set to the soundblaster also, rather than the Delta wave out 1/2. You can also create more master faders so that one is set to output to the SB, another to the Delta.

If you hear playback other than audio tracks, you're getting the SB synth. You will also have to set your individual midi tracks to output to the SB. The details from here are in the manual. Stay with it. This is worth the effort.

Gotta leave work now. Keep us posted.

[Paul881]

ChuckU, I am very interested in this. Currently have a s/blaster Live!plat. 5.1 card but am adding a Delta 66 soon. I want to use the s/b for midi & soundfonts, the Delta for audio. Are you suggesting that I won't be able to run both simultaneously in one take? I use win 98 and HS2002.

[ChuckU]

Paul,
When I tried to play both cards back together I got quite a bit of distortion (I think it's lack of word clock). You may have better luck. Anyway, you will probably need to do the following:

First off, when you load the Delta, cross your fingers that you don't get an IRQ conflict with the Soundblaster. Assuming you get by that and it loads ok, you will have to go into Audio->Options and set one card to master playback clock and master record clock.

Then, create another main bus. Have the "A" play back the SB, the "B" play the Delta. Or vice-versa. It don't matter.

Your individual tracks also need to be pointed to a main out.

I understand your need for the SB as the Delta has no midi.

How you will do this in '98 without conflicts I don't know. In Win2k, IRQ sharing is allowed. Both my soundcards and my video card are on IRQ 11, coexisting peacefully. This can be over-ridden by disabling ACPI and reloading device drivers. This is spelled out at www.cakewalknet.com . I have not felt the need to do this yet. I assume that what I just said about Win2k goes for XP also.

[AlChuck]

Paul,

I have an SB Live and a Delta 66 coexisting just fine in Windows 98SE...

I think the only clocking issue would be if you wanted to record two channels of audio via the SB Live as you were recording other tracks with the Delta.

[buddybologna]

I was able to get midi sounds to play through my soundblaster, but it just sounds horrible....Maybe my soundcard just can't handle the synth sounds properly. I'm also having a similar problem to CHUCKU. I'm getting horrible distortion on my soundblaster. When I try to record a midi triack to audio, that's were it really sounds god aweful. The midi drums are distorted and the sound is just so artificial sounding. I would think by converting a midi file to a wav that it would get rid of that artificial sound somewhat.

I spent most of the night reading up on DXI's and soft synth. It's just not working out the way I'm reading the information.

So I guess my next question would be how to get a really good drum sound. If I could get a few ideas on where to go from here I would greatly appreciate it. I'm almost out of hair from ripping it out.

[ChuckU]

It won't grow back. Trust me.

Did you make the SB your master record and play clock? Let's take the Delta out of the equation just for yucks.

If you already did this and still no love, I'm kind of out of ideas...

Another route you might try is getting a CD of drum loops. You can get them to work as groove clips and even tweak the tempo to your project. I've done this too.

[buddybologna]

I completely removed the delta from my PC. I even took out the PCI card out of my PC. I set anything that said delta to SoundBlaster in Sonar. Didn't help at all.

Also tried on both Win98SE and 2000. (I run a dual boot) No difference.

I'm not going to drag this out any further...It's just not going to work for me.

Can anyone recommend some good equipment I can add, software or hardware, to get my Midi to sound professional? I'm not overly concerned about price at this point, it just can't possibly compare to the aggravation.

[Yadi]

Why can't he use a software sampler within Sonar made for Sonar? Vsampler ($69( may do the job and is actually sold on Cakewalks site. Download the demo. If its just more realistic drums, then this should do the job without taxing your system too much.

I'm still waiting for my copy of Sonar, but this is one direction I plan to investigate. I don't even want to consider using multiple cards within my system.....unless they were specifically designed to work together.

Currently, I use a Roland TD-7 kit/module and sometimes route midi drums through my Alesis QS8.1. IMO - Either one sounds better than what I've heard out of a soundblaster.

I've been experimenting with ACID Pro. Found some really good sounding samples (I play rock oriented, not club "boom chika" tracks"). I find it the most time consuming aspect of the recording process....in fact, its programming...not even recording. It takes all day to find the loops that will work or that can be worked.

I prefer to play the drum tracks on the Roland kit, fix it up in the midi editor, then have the midi drive the appropriate sounds. This is where Vsampler will come into the picture.

[Paul881]

AlChuck/ChuckU,

I will never use the s/b for audio when I get the Delta 66. I will only use it for midi & soundfonts. I guess there's only one way to find out what problems there are.....I'll let you know Thanks for the installation and set-up tips.

BTW, my soundfonts and Midi play great with the s/blaster, buddybologna. I would suggest going for a clean re-install.

Yadi, many people who post here use two soundcards. It a way of life for them

Lets hope I'm still smiling in a few weeks time!

[buddybologna]

I was looking into the TD-7 by Roland also the TD-10. I really want to break down and get the V-Concert series with the TD-10, but I'm not ready to part with 5 grand.

I'm not trying to get any kind of deep rap or techno sound. I primarily play heavy music, and the biggest problem I've always had recording in studios is the drums.. They always sound flat and distant. And as much as I thought I would never convert I'm finding that electronic drums or samplers sound better than most drum kits that are set up with mics.

I agree with the programming. It almost completely takes the fun of being a musician when you have to waist countless hours setting up a drum tracks, as opposed to actually playing them, but at this point I'm looking for quality.

[Paul881]

I am really an audio geetar and drums man so I want/need my drums to sound like there's a drummer there (without the hassle that only drummers can bring ) so I am particular as to how drums sound. So Techno is out as are the usual midi type drums. And then I discovered soundfonts

So now, I create my drum tracks in piano roll view, and use s/fonts to play back. And they sound pretty good to my ears, they even fool my drummer friends (when they are not in bars...or behind them )

I would recommend you persevere with s/fonts and the s/blaster card.

FYI, I am now looking to upgrade to Fruity loops and the soundfont add on for easy, natural sounding drum loop creation.

[buddybologna]

I downloaded a trial version of fruity loops from their site, I can already hear the difference in quality...If this works it will be good enough for now.

I don't understand why the sound quality is so much better than Sonar, but if it works, I'm not going to complain.

[Yadi]

If you ever go in the direction of a drumkit...whatever it is (pintech, alesis, roland, etc.)...my advice is to go with the woven head technology. Its pricey, but man what a different/better feel....plus there is nothing more annoying then hearing the sticks hitting some hardened rubber. Drives me nuts even with headphones.....I own the rubber. I demoed the V-Concert series with brushes, using a jazz/brush preset of course....and it felt so real I got chills.....................

[buddybologna]

I have to agree with you yadi..

I will always prefer a real kit to an electronic set, but the V-concert series kicks ass..Everytime I go to a music store I spend at least 20 min on it. My cousin just bought the rubber set by Roland. I forget the model, but it uses the TD-8 module. It sounds good but the pads suck. Horrible reaction time. And the snare sounds pretty crappy (way too artificial).

My only fear with the V-Concert is I like to hit drums really hard, and I'm afraid with the mesh skins, I'll be replacing alot of drums until I get used to the difference.

I was going to settle on a cheaper set, but after trying both, I decided to hold out...I know it will be worth it.

[A1MixMan]

I run a Delta 1010 with Sonar XL and WinXP.
I use Live Synth Pro DXi for the soundfonts, that way you don't need the SB Live card for that.
I also use a Midi Sport 4x4 for connecting my keyboards and other midi gear.
I found that the midi port on the 1010 didn't work well, so I don't use it at all.
The Roland Virtual Sound Canvas was made to be a sound module so you wouldn't need another wav synth like SB Live.

Try the Midi Sport instead of the 1010 midi input, as I recall it made my midi sound bad also.

A1MixMan

P.S. I have some great drum Soundfonts that sound fantastic. I just play them with my keyboard. Sounds like real drums to me.

[buddybologna]

Ok I figured out my problem regarding bad quality sound with my midi files.

I'm not really sure how this got affected, but there is a feature in Win98SE, 2000, and ME, that disables ports if they are not used for a period of time. It's seems somehow this feature was causing the internal synth on my soundcard not to respond correctly. This problem may also cause COM and LPT ports to function incorrectly.

To correct it you have to run the Registry Editor in Windows:
Go to START -> Run, type "REGEDIT", hit enter.

Open this path HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Services\VxD\VCOMM

On the right where it says Enable Power Management, edit that key and set the first group of numbers from 01 to 00.

Reboot....

I still a little crackling when recording Midi, but adjusting the trim seems to take care of that.

......DXI's are awesome......