Balanced vs Unbalanced

[Skyline609]

Ok im sure this question has been asked a million times so i apologize in advance for that.. My question is what is the difference between the balanced and unbalanced. I already know the technical stuff that has to do with that, like -10db and +4db, but what does this mean in terms of the actual sound. Also, if your recorder is unbalanced such as the Alesis ADAT, does it matter if you are using balanced cables everywhere else?????

[dobro]

Balanced cables transmit signals that are cleaner and fatter than unbalanced. If you compare the waveforms of each when recorded on computer software, you can see it really plainly, and your ears tell you the same thing too. Balanced = less drek, more signal.

[Shailat]

There Are disadvantages to Balanced Cables.

1. More expensive
2. They don't work unless ever part of your setup it Balanced
3. With Cables under 20 feet it doesn't make much of a difference.

If you have a unbalanced studio and all is quiet, balanced in my humble opinion Won't help.

[Emeric]

This is just wiring. Balanced cable has 3 wires, unbalanced 2. -10 and +4 is another topic. Unbalanced and balanced cables can and are used together in many situations. A microphone is a balanced line, and I would say most people are using 3 wire XLR cables from a microphone to the mixer. Out from the mixer it can be balanced, or unbalanced, depends what your recorder will take.

The big advantage of balanced cables is their higher immunity to noise and radio interference. This is because of their wiring, and the electronics involved when the signal hits the mixer. Unbalanced lines are more susceptable to noise, but as Shailet says, keep the lines short.

[Skyline609]

so basically, the whole balanced and unbalanced ordeal doesn really make a difference with the quality of sound, just the resistance to noise?

[Layth]

If you have ever heard line hum you KNOW it affects the quality of your music. Balanced lines go a long way in eliminating it.

[Emeric]

Skyline, I don't hear any differnce in a short unbalanced line versus a short balanced line, there is no reason for any sound quality difference. But, you certainly want to minimize the noise, and balanced is the way to do it most times. And balanced isn't perfect either, the transformers involved can introduce noise into the signal as well. So.. for long cable distance, balanced is absolutly the way to go, for short distances, unbalanced will work fine.

[Recording Engineer]

Emeric is right; mostly!

Two or three connections doesn't necessarily mean -10dbu or +4dbm, but one (usually) comes with the other.

However, there is a difference "quaity-wise" as far as -10dbu and +4dbm goes. This would be why it is also known as "semi-pro line level" (-10dbu) and "pro line level" (+4dbm). This is a 14db difference! Why would there be two different standard line reference levels if there was no difference? Because one was introduced to improve the other. Why is the "older" line reference level still used? I don't know; cheaper? My best example behind all this would be the two analog connections on an ADAT. Everyone I know says the Elco (balanced, +4dbm) connection is better; not because it's balanced if it's short (my Monster is only 10'), but because your quality will be sigificantly better because you're getting a 14db increase as compared to the phonos (unbalanced, -10dbu).

Also, there is no audible difference "sound-wise" unless running long cable. An unbalanced cable running 100' will have a lot more noise introduced and have less high-end response than a balanced 100' cable (balanced will experience high-end response loss and noise, but not nearly as much).

As far as digital connections go, I do not know. I sure don't hear any difference at all (know one I personally know can't either). Although I'd presume that maybe as length increased, the quality may be altered.

[Recording Engineer]

Also, it doesn't matter if you're using the unbalanced, -10dbu connections on your ADAT with balanced equipment as long as your preamps output -10dbu and your console inputs and outputs -10dbu. By the way. To inter-twine balanced and unbalanced equipment, read my response under the post Patch Bay-sics...Sanity Check in the THE RACK forum.

[Skyline609]

I still dont quite understand, does the Alesis Adat recorders have +4db level inputs, is it self explanitory to spend the extra money and have all your gear carry the +4db? Also, how do you know if a mixer will output at this level??

[This message has been edited by Skyline609 (edited 12-10-1999).]

[Recording Engineer]

Yes, ADATs have +4dbm inputs and outputs. It's the Elco connector; the one that looks like a huge computer cable. To find out what a board's line reference level is, you have to look at the specs. If you don't know what you're looking for, then tell me what board you're using and I'll look it up and let you know. Some boards have the opinion for either line reference level. Of those some, some switches the entire board, some just the channels individually, and some with even greater options such as AUX RTNs, 2-TRK INs, BUS OUTS, VUs, etc.

Also, as far as it being worth spending the extra money for gear that has +4dbm line reference level, my answer is that as a general "rule of thumb" is that MOST RECORDING GEAR designed during the early to mid-90s and above which are even worth buying, either runs at +4dbm or gives the option for either one. As far as before that time, I'd have to say it probably depends on the quality of the gear (of course "quality" is very objectable). Another words, would it even be worth using a +4dbm line reference level on gear which is not even very good "quality-wise" in the first place; hence, increasing the cost?

[dobro]

Emeric, Rec Eng: I'm surprised when you say there's no audible difference between balanced and unbalanced cable, because in a test I ran, there was a clear difference. I ran the same test tonight, just to check, and had the same results. Recorded a vocal snippet with a Shure SM58 on a crap 6' unbalanced cable (Astel Super Deluxe Microphone Cord ) to my computer - the waveform was so scrawny it didn't look like a waveform, the sound through the headphones was weak, and the playback sound just as weak. Then I recorded the same vocal bit with the same mic, but with a 6' Monster cable (Standard 100 series), and there was a dandy waveform, and strong volume through the headphones which was matched during playback. Science is born, I thought.

[Emeric]

Dobro,

This is not the example I meant. Certainly for a microphone you want to use balanced cable only. For unbalanced, I meant line level signal being fed out of a mixer to an effect unit, or to the input of a multitracker etc versus using a balanced line.

Absolutly you will see and hear a great difference in the sound quality under the conditions you describe.

[This message has been edited by Emeric (edited 12-11-1999).]

[Skyline609]

Everyone, thanks for the feedback! Recording Engineer, I never purchased a mixer before, and am quite new to the whole recording world. This certainly clearing things up, but i really dont know what to look for in a mixer and what specifications classify it to be a very good board. I was considering something in the 750-2000 range. Certainly considering The alesis studio 32, or possibly a low-end mackie or the Behringer MX9000. I really dont know what the boards output at, so i wont know what the are capable of doing. Will one of these boards connected to the +4 line on an Alesis ADAT say, LX20, potentially be a powerful setup before adding all the effects, compression, etc.??
Thanks

[Recording Engineer]

Yes, we are talking about line reference levels and balanced vs. unbalanced line level cables. Mic level and line level are completely two different levels. In fact, that would be why we need pres for mics. Pres boost the mic level to the working line reference level of the board.

Of course you're going to get less output from an unbalanced mic cable as compared to a balanced one because unbalanced cables have a much higher impedence (resistance) than balanced ones. This would be why you need a transformer when going from one to the other (of course there are ways around that), but not usually for microphone levels other than a differential stage. Again, refer to my response under the post Patch Bay-sics...Sanity Check in the THE RACK forum.

[Recording Engineer]

dobro:

Yes, we are talking about line reference levels and balanced vs. unbalanced line level cables. Mic level and line level are completely two different levels. In fact, that would be why we need pres for mics. Pres boost the mic level to the working line reference level of the board.

Of course you're going to get less output from an unbalanced mic cable as compared to a balanced one because unbalanced cables have a much higher impedence (resistance) than balanced ones. This would be why you need a transformer when going from one to the other (of course there are ways around that), but not usually for microphone levels other than a differential stage. Again, refer to my response under the post Patch Bay-sics...Sanity Check in the THE RACK forum.

Skyline609:

The boards you mentioned will do just fine with -10dbu or +4dbm line reference level. I've not had any experience with any Behringer equipment, but I have to say I'll always be loyal to Mackie because Mackie has always been loyal to me.

I bought a Mackie SR24-4 about a year after they first came out. It traveled all over Northern California, USA for three years (without a case) and was used with an ADAT-XT using a Monster +4dbm Elco-to-TRS cable in my studio in between, and never failed me once. I sold it about 6 months ago to buy a used Soundcraft. Now, about 4 months ago, I bought a Mackie 1604 VLZ-PRO to fit perfectly on top in my live roll rack for live performances with my band.

[Rolland]

I know mine is a silly question but I still don't know, are all XLR cables balanced and TRS unbalanced? How about cables with XLR one end and TRS the other?

[Fishmed]

Rolland,

Both 1/4" TRS and XLR are ballanced (three connections), even when they are on the same cable. RCA and 1/4" TR are unbalanced (two connections).

[Jim Marquard]

Hey Skyline,

Just a couple of things to mention. First, the ADAT LX20 does NOT have the ELCO connection option, only RCA, unbalanced, -10db connectors. To be honest, I have had a salesman tell me that he does not think that the difference in sound quality justifies the difference in cost between the LX20 and XT20 (which does have the ELCO connection). The cost in machines is about $500 and the ELCO cable is another $130. I know that if you go the Alesis forum, Ed will tell you diffently. As for mixing board, the Alesis 32 has great specks but I have read on this page some concerns about noise. Well, sometimes you have to take all the opinions as just that--opinions. That Studio 32 looks pretty awesome. But if your range is $750-2000 you might want to check out a Mackie 16 channel recording console. They are supposed to be pretty hot. The 24 channel might even be in that price range. The Berringer 9000X is at @$2400, but again, the specs are pretty impressive. All of the folks out here on the board might want to give sky here some feedback on pros and cons of these three bands, especially first hand opinions. Personally, I don't have the bucks for a big board, but I have used the Mackie VLZ series and have been impressed with Mackie since day one.

As for the balanced/unbalanced question--when you buy your board make sure all channel inputs, main outs and direct outs are balanced. Balanced inputs will take advantage of balanced cables AND can use unbalanced cables. Unbalanced inputs cannot give you this option. Many of the newer boards will also give you balanced aux sends and returns for outboard rack effects modules. Same thing, you will then have options. When recording, the more options the better, then you don't have to buy twice.

Peace, Jim Marquard

[Skyline609]

Jim, im thankful for your input. I have little experience so far with any mixers, as well as recorders....I know whats out there, just dont know which is good and which isnt, I would certainly appreciate ANY comments on mixers or recorder in general!!!

Back to the Alesis ADAT's, what would be an alternative here? I definitly would like to go the extra foot and get the balanced in's. What other formats could i multitrack with? Im just naturally self-guided to the Alesis products because of their price, i own a QS71 and a Quadraverb by them and see nothing that would keep me from buying more from them. I would love to purchase an ADAT recorder with the Studio32 but the unblanced ins on the recorder is just something that will always bug ya you know? id b e glad if anyone could help

[Recording Engineer]

Remember, just beause it's an XLR or TRS connector does not mean it's balanced. For example: My unbalanced C/R 1/4" outputs on my board are connected to the XLR inputs on my Event 20/20bas monitors by soldering pin 1 and 3 together.

[Jim Marquard]

Sky, I think you might have a couple of options here. In terms of recorders you can go with the ADAT XT20 and get the ELCO connector. You than have balanced tape inputs and +4db on those inputs. You now have a recorder that is up to snuff with the big boys. Its extra money, but if you have it go for it. Another option is the Fostex D-108 which is an 8-track digital hard drive recorder. It also records 20 bit like the ADAT and it can be purchased with an additional balanced +4db connector. If you don't have that kind of money to buy the deck and connectors, just get the deck--either comes standard with RCA, unbalanced -10db jacks. Hey, sometimes money is a factor--it definitely would be for me. Mixers: I might go with the Studio 32--it looks impressive. But for the same money, I could get a Tascam TMD1000 digital mixer or the Roland VM Pro3100. Both go for about $1000, have digital effects and a snapshot memory (remembers all your settings so if you stop recording one day, a week later you can start again at all the same levels). Of course, the Roland VS series stand alone recording system are the talk of the town. The VS880 is a 20bit recorder and the VS1680 is a 24bit recorder. Both have awesome built in effects which means you don't need anything but instruments and vocals. Any outbourd effects would be to bolster what they already have. The 880(@$1500) is an 8 track and the 1680($2400) is a 16 track. The big problem with the 1680 is that the effects cards (it takes up to 2, but you can install 1 at a time if you don't have $600 for both) are optional. But I have seen stores throw one or both cards in for free (really).

Personally, I think I would go with the ADAT. I like the idea of putting 40 minutes of 8 track music on a $12 tape. I, unfortunately am not made of money, so I dream about the Studio Pack, which I still can't afford. The Studio Pack is the LX20 and the Studio 24 board. You don't get the option of balanced +4db tape inputs, but the total cost is under $2000. And you get the Nanocomp and Nanoverb and all necessary cables for hooking up the recorder, board and processors, too. People might say that those effects units (the Nanoes) aren't too hot, but they are basically thrown into the Studio Pack for free. Honestly, I've listen to this setup and I was really impressed. The recording sounded pretty great to me. It may not be production studio quality, but it beat the heck out of my anaolg 4-track. Anyway, you can always add better effects (I already have them), upgrade the board and use the old board for live shows and/or practices. The options are endless. The question is what does your pocketbook allow. This is a great website, but some people act as if those of us with small check books and families shouldn't try to produce great music of good quality. When the record labels decide to push my songs and pay me bucks or when I win the lottery then I will get the toys I really want. But till then, I can still create killer music for a little money. Someday for even $2000.

Another option is the Fostex VR800 and VM200 (Ithink those are the right numbers). This set up is a digital mixer (the VM) and 8 track hard disc recorder. The recorder is 16bit (the same as a CD) and uncompressed (important). The Mixer is 32bit (that is vastly superior to CD, though the recorder will take that great sound and only produce CD quality sound--like that is terrible, right). Musician's Friend has this setup for $1899. Oh yeah, the board has built in effects, though it may not have a compressor. It does have all kinds of digital outputs, including ADAT--all standard. So you could go straight from this board into an ADAT and not even worry about the balanced vs balanced and the -10db vs +4db argument. The signal would be pure digital. So the LX20 vs the XT20 ADAT argument starts to become unimportant in terms of sound quality--the digital signal remains the same for both. So $2500 or less would get the Fostex board and the ADAT LX20 and the money you save could buy a killer compressor, additional effects, mics, new guitar, etc. depending on the amount of money you have to use.

Make sure you try to get an opportunity to check out the equipment you want to use before you buy, if possible. I live in small town in rural Wisconsin (go Badgers) surrounded by a number of small towns. I have 2 music stores in a 25 mile radius, so listening to everthing I want would be tough. But to try is important. Let you ear decide what you want more so than your pocketbook. Money should determine only what you can't afford, the ear should tell you the rest of the story.

Peace, Jim

[This message has been edited by Jim Marquard (edited 12-16-1999).]

[Jim Marquard]

I incorrectly quoted in the above about the Fostex VR800 and VM200 combo. It is not the price from Musician's Friend but from American Music Supply.

Peace, Jim

[Recording Engineer]

Listen to Jim Marquard. He sounds very passionate about recording but doesn't have much money for the gear; like a lot of people and myself at one point. But I have to say, that crossover point for me came when I could afford it and decided to take the big risk. But the results aren't in yet; I know in a couple of years.

[Skyline609]

jim that was some great advice, and provided an excellent starting point. i couldnt thank you enough.
Luke