Best Mic Preamp vs $

[Dig]

I am looking at some pre amps. I really could use on with 2 ins/out but I am more concerned about quality.

The 3 I have seen so far are

ART Tube MP Studio V3 $129
M-Audio Audio Buddy $ 89
M-Audio DMP3 $199

The reason for 2 is for vocals and guitar. But if the consensus is that the ART is far better than the m-audio(s) I could always by 2 of them.


There maybe other better choices you can suggest. I would be greatful.

Thanks

[Gidge]

who told you Art was better than M Audio's?......

[ap]

Whatever happened to the Presonus Bluetube guys? I prefer it the Art Tube MP. Never tried the V3 or the M-Audio stuff.

[CarmenC]

Check out the JoeMeek MQ3 here...
http://www.macmidimusic.com/newjoemeekmq3.html
$189.00
awesome on bass, too....
C

[Gidge]

I have the VC3Q which the MQ3 pretty much replaced and it does kick some butt on bass...not too shabby for vocals or guitar either....

[Trak]

Gidge,

I TOTALLY agree with you the VC3Q could even kick J.Lo's ass!!!

I'm so meeked now, it's nerve wracking.

[Randy Yell]

i haven't used the Meek stuff but people really seem to like it.Don't even consider the Art "TUBE" MP as I have one and I think it's a noisy P.O.S.


I really like the Audio Buddy,two channels of very clean peamplification.At $80 for two channels I think it's one of the real deals.

[Gidge]

the Art to me for some reason was always a tricky bastard to set right...but most people say the Meeks are noisier than Arts...go figure....Im a Meek man myself..........

I tried to talk Slackmaster2K into an Audio Buddy at one point and he passed because of the geeky name (well maybe a few more reasons).....but yeah, i agree its a great lil unit for the price....

[Randy Yell]

Man,you could rename the Audio Buddy "I'm a Big Fat Girly Man" and I would still use it.I agree it's a stupid name but you don't plug your mic into the name.A rose by any other name...

[Jonkan]

a used symetrix 202 is the best pre. Esp if you get it moded (not that expensive) should cost about 180-200$ if you can find anyone willing to give it up (not likely )

[knownuttin]

Hey how much you pay for the mod on the Symetrix? Been thinking about getting that done.
-kent

[Slackmaster2K]

You can do the Symetrix mod for about $27 (if you get the high grade opamps). The 202 is usable, although it's not very musical sounding. I'm definately going to mod mine one of these days to see what kind of difference it makes.

Gidge, I was just joking about the audio buddy name I was planning on buying one just recently until I discovered that it only delivers 36V phantom power. Now that might not be such a big deal, but it made me look into alternatives. So far I really haven't found any though

Slackmaster 2000

[Randy Yell]

Slack I thought That I read that someone measured the phantom power at 43v on their Audio Buddy.Still not a full 48v I know but I've never had trouble powering my mics and they call for 48v.

[Slackmaster2K]

Randy,

On deja, I've read anything from 24V to 36V. It's the only complaint I've ever seen about the unit for the price. 43V is starting to sound a little more reasonable.

Anybody want to check their buddy for me?

Slackmaster 2000

[Harvey Gerst]

The actual Phantom Power specification allows for a +/- 4 volt tolerance (from 44 Volts to 52 Volts). David Satz (of Schoeps) tested some of the low price pres and found the Audio Buddy was only putting out something like 36 Volts.

An electret mic (like the AT4033) won't really care about that, since electrets don't need phantom power to polarize their capsules; phantom power on those mics is just used to power the on-board electronics (which don't require much in the way of voltage).

But, an externally polarized capsule will not get its full charge from preamps that starve the phantom power. What will happen? The output of the mic will be lower, the noise level will be higher, and the frequency response curve will change.

Sometimes the mic may actually sound better, but it's a crap shoot - you're running the mic at a point the manufacturer never designed it for.

[Speeddemon]

How 'bout the DMP-3 then? Will it deliver full 48V DC?

If I will buy an Audiobuddy, I would mainly use it for my dynamic mics, so no real problems there, eh?

The name...Well maybe Mr. Pre sounds cooler...
I watch a lot of A-team re-runs...

"Hey sucka, bettah be no jabberin' about no phantompower, ya hear? I'm gonna hit you so hard, I'm gonna KNOCK you inta next week!!!"

If my Audiobuddy/Mr. Pre would say that to the Art Tube MP, the poor bastard would probably shit out his tube on the spot...

cheerz

[Randy Yell]

Speedman,I noticed for the Audio Buddy M-Audio doesn't actually state the voltage of the phantom power anywhere(not even in the user's manual) but on the DMP3 they do claim 48v so I'm pretty sure it is 48v.They obviously know the voltage on the Audio Buddy so they make no claims.

[Gidge]

maybe with the DMP3 out, someone will closeout the DMP2 REALLY cheap.....i picked up mine for $79 and its SWEEEEET!

[alanhyatt]

Originally posted by Trak
Gidge,

I TOTALLY agree with you the VC3Q could even kick J.Lo's ass!!!

I'm so meeked now, it's nerve wracking.

Hey, how come the VC3 gets to lick J.Lo's ass and not me

[knownuttin]

Slack, can you direct me to where I can find out more about moding the Symetrix? A price that cheap must mean DIY, and I've never handled a soldering gun. Still, I'd be grateful for any info you have or could point me to. TIA.
-kent

[Moon Unit Sound]

I got a chance to listen to a CD recently that compared a lot of the different mic pres, and I have to be honest: I was pretty surprized by the results. The CD basically goes through a bunch of different sound samples from various instruments through all of the preamps, one by one. I listened to all the samples blind, and put smiley faces next to the ones I liked, straight-faces next to the average ones and so on.

Here are just a few random thoughts:

Focusrite Red - Disappointment. I was fully expecting this one to be one of my favorites, but as it turns out, too many straight faces, a few smileys, and a few frowns. Nothing special.

Presonus - Another disappointment. Not bad, but nothing special here either. One too many frown faces.

Grace Design - Undecided. I liked this one on all of the "weird instruments" and percusssion that were tested. I also gave it the highest marks, hands down, on things like woodwind and brass instruments. As far as drums, guitar, and other more traditional pop instruments, it was just okay. Conclusion: probably great for classical, folk, or jazz, but a little too vanilla for pop/rock and definitely too plain-jane for metal or punk.

The surprize of the bunch: DBX. I don't recall which model it was, but I remember it was one of their Silver series. Surprizingly clean sounding, contrary to what I have heard from other users. I found this one to be more of a jack-of-all. A few smiley faces, a lot of plain faces, but I don't recall any frowns. It just sounds "pretty good" on just about everything.

[notCardio]

Harvey,

Are the results of the tests you mentioned posted anywhere that we could see them? Now I'm wondering if any other pre's, budget or otherwise, have a similar problem. Anyone know for sure? Do the pre's in any of the popular mixers have this problem? It would sure be nice to know.

[Harvey Gerst]

Here's David Satz' complete post:

Date: 2001-01-15 07:14:27 PST
<roccoflores@my-deja.com> wrote:

It´s incredible they can sell a product with such a big problem.

Unfortunately, U.S.-designed mike preamps in the lower price category often have circuitry that can't possibly work well with high-quality, transformerless condenser microphones. The phantom powering circuit is often just plain wrong, and the preamps overload far too easily.

I always check these two parameters plus the function of the "clip" indicator, before trying out a preamp on live music. Just for fun, here are some notes that I've kept over the past few months. The issues here are:

[1] Input overload voltage (0 dBu = 775 mV, which would be a decent spec to aim for; 6-10 dB higher would be better, but 0 dBu is OK _if there is a reliable overload indicator_)

[2] adequacy of the phantom power supply for a microphone that needs ca. 4 to 5 mA (for two such mikes, if the preamp is a stereo unit)

[3] if an "overload" indicator is present, at what level relative to actual overload does it light? (Note: I measure this only as a steady-state voltage, not as an impulse--but both behaviors are quite important.)

==============================================

Siemens V 72 overloads at -15 dBu in (no phantom powering, no overload indicator)

Symetrix SX202 overloads at +2 dBu in (4 above LED on); phantom powering OK

dbx 760X overloads at around +3 dBu in (5 above LED on); phantom powering OK if extraneous resistor feeding the two 6.8 kOhm phantom resistors per channel is reduced in value (modification approved by dbx technician)

Beyer MV 100 overloads at ca. -5 dBu in (6 or 7 above LED on); phantom powering OK; overload point decreases as batteries wear down, but "clip" LED seems to track this behavior.

PreSonus "Blue Tube" (fails 48 V phantom test) overloads ca. -14 dBu in

Midiman "Audio Buddy" (fails 48 V phantom test) overloads ca. -17 dBu in (LED lights exactly where output distortion is audible, but can miss input overload) David said it only put out 30 volts -HG

JoeMeek VC3 (fails 48V phantom test) does NOT overload with +6 dBu in! (original model, not the current model VC3Q)

Aphex 107 "Tubessence" (marginally fails 48V phantom test with odd results; Aphex tech support described a fairly strange circuit with non-standard voltages and resistor values, claiming that it met the "AES" standard for phantom powering, which does not exist) overloads ca. +4 dBu (ca. 7 dB above LED on, but the LED interacts w/low cut filter also-try -4 dBu in at 500 Hz,)

Event EMP-1 does NOT clip at + 6 dBu in (though clip LED comes on 9 dB before!); phantom power OK

ART Dual MP (squeaks by on 48V phantom test) normal setting does NOT clip at + 6 dBu in; LED lights exactly where input distortion is audible at higher gains. At +20 input gain, clips at about -8 or -7 dBu.

Nakamichi MX-100 "mixer" (3 in, 2 out): No phantom power; does NOT clip at +6 dBu in; no overload indicator

M Audio DMP2 (original model): Phantom power OK if only one channel loaded (open circuit voltage on other channel drops to +44.6 V); input clips ca. 75 mA (ca. -20 dBu); LED reflects output clipping only (lights ca. 2 dB below that).

[Randy Yell]

I guess thats why M-Audio doesn't make any voltage claim on the Audio buddy's phantom power.I've never had a problem with my mics,so I guess I've been lucky.Probably anyone thinking of getting one should make sure it can power whatever mic(s) they want to use with it.

I haven't read many post complaining of underpowering with the Audio buddy and there seems to be a good many users,does that mean that many mics today that are listed as needing 48v can run on much less?I have an AT 3525 that is supposed to need 48v and it runs as smooth as glass through the Audio Buddy.The thing I guess I don't understand is how everyone that uses it raves on how quiet it sounds(it is very quiet),is it that many of the popular low to mid budget mics are electret?

[ap]

An electret mic (like the AT4033) won't really care about that, since electrets don't need phantom power to polarize their capsules....But, an externally polarized capsule will not get its full charge from preamps that starve the phantom power

Hey Harvey, generally speaking, whats an "electret mic" and what's an "externally polarized capsule?" How can you tell which one you have?