Dumb tuning question

[Dolemite]

OK, well, keep in mind that I'm just learning to play guitar (slowly) and I'm no musical genius either...

Anyway, I'm trying to tune my guitar to:

C#-F#-B#-E#-G#-C#

Using my J-Station's built-in tuner (not the best I know) I can't seem to get the E# tuned at all. The J-Station seems to be able to "read" (if that makes any sense) all the flats except Fb. What I mean is that it will show all the flat notes I need on the little LED display except Fb. I just tried to tune as close in between E and F as I could. It didn't work too well.

I'm sure there's some trick to get this tuned right, so help a brotha out!

Thanks!

[Roel]

yada yada yada...

Think it's time for you to get some music-theory background.

Here is the scale of C:

C D E-F G A B-C

Now you see there are 2 -s in it. Here's why: the scale exists of half and whole tones. There's only half a tone between E-F and B-C. The rest is whole tones.
Which means:
E# is F
Fb is E
B# is C
Cb is B

There some more remarks to make about this, but with just this, you should do fine.

So if you put all the half tones after eachother (chromatic scale), you get:
C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C
No E# in here, cause that is F... Same for B# which is C...

Same with flats:
C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab A Bb B C

[Blue Bear Sound]

Another point... I hope like hell you are tuning downwards instead of up...

Guitar necks are designed to handle the string tension with the guitar tuned at concert pitch A440 - where the 5th string (A) is tuned at 440Hz....

You risk straining the neck considerably if you tune higher than that....

So -- you can do this - just make sure you are tuning your low E (6th string) DOWN to C# and not up!

Bruce

[Roel]

And to add to bruces comment: if you're tuning it that much lower, you should also consider getting heavier strings. A too low tension will not give a good tone, and your strings will rattle against the frets.

I've never gotten the point of tuning down that guitar. Take a different chord if you want it to sound heavier. You can really hear on some recordings that the guitar is tuned TOO low. It takes a while before the string plays the tune you want, it's sorta wobbling before that.

Played guitar for over 8 years, never tuned down. (Different tunings is something else. This allows other fingering positions that are not possible in original tuning... But I hardly used that either. Some classical pieces, but that was about it.)

[Atwork]

Albert King used to tune down 5 notes (or frets, can't remember which). That's supposed to be part of the reason for his ghostly "other-worldly" tone.

[Roel]

Well, yeah. Maybe. But you really can't do it without taking thicker strings.

For solo purposes it's also kinda different than when playing rhythm. You need more control to do that. Oh well.

I know/knew alot of people that did this, the previous guitarplayer in our band did this. (I can play most of our songs in D, D# and E on keyboards. They would retune from D to D# without me knowing, right in front of a concert! Idiots. Try to figure that out when your drunk already!) Anyway, the best guitarplayers I know just play in E, there's enough you can do... And there tone is ussually way better than the average drop-d or whatever downtuned guitar...

But if you know what you are doing, and it fits your tone better, guess that's a good reason...

[warlock]

Depends on what music do you play.
Bands that tune down to C#: My Dying Bride, HIM, Type O Negative.
I named only real metal bands none of that baggy pants 1 riff through the whole song crap.

I tune down to C# aswell. I use heavier strings adjust the truss rod and it sounds good.
Chords in sharp tuning sound "sadder" than the chords in normal tuning...... IMO anyway.

And lowest possible chord on a downtuned guitar sounds always heavier than the lowest possible chord on a standard guitar.
For example the D powerchord on normal tuning sounds whimpy as on downtuned guitars it sounds powerful.

Keijo

[Atwork]

Yes, I'm pretty sure Albert King used heavy gauge strings and played mainly solos, little or no chord work, like B.B. King.

[Treeline]

If you're just starting, this is a good time to learn relative tuning techniques - that is, match a string to its note and tune the rest of the instument with respect to that string. You can then check your progress by reference to the electronic tuner, as each string will go slightly flat as the others are brought up to pitch. BUT - the idea is to listen to the tone and develop your ear, and don't start using the damn tuner as a crutch.

The last thing you want to do is have second thoughts about your judgment of pitch just because you can't get the lights to stay green; to do that is to elevate form over substance and to lose the essence of the idea that ears rule when it comes to sound. Too many people doodle with tuners and stop listening to their guitars!

If you're interested in alternate tunings, there's a great $20.00 book published by Acoustic Guitar magazine (includes a CD) on alternate tunings that is well worth the money. In fact, the whole instructional book series they publish seems well done. The link is

http://www.acousticguitar.com/books/...html#alternate

[jimistone]

Yes, I'm pretty sure Albert King used heavy gauge strings and played mainly solos, little or no chord work, like B.B. King

I have alot of albert kings albums and have saw him live (when he was alive) several times. Albert did alot of chord work. he played left handed and his guitar was strung right handed, so, his strings were upside down (little E on top). This is one of the reasons that alberts style is so hard to play. when he would bend the the hell out of the little E string....he was pulling down on the top string...instead of bending up on the bottom string. Also, since he was playing upside down, alot of licks that were natural for him are very difficult to do on a right handed guitar strung for a right handed player.

[Roel]

Originally posted by warlock
Depends on what music do you play.
Bands that tune down to C#: My Dying Bride, HIM, Type O Negative.
I named only real metal bands none of that baggy pants 1 riff through the whole song crap.

And lowest possible chord on a downtuned guitar sounds always heavier than the lowest possible chord on a standard guitar.
For example the D powerchord on normal tuning sounds whimpy as on downtuned guitars it sounds powerful.

Do you mean the same chord, or the chord an octave below that??

What I used to do if I wanted a heavy sound, I just played the power chord with the fifth on the lowest string.

As for those bands: never really cared about their sound. Hardly ever cared about there music. Guess that's also why I never saw the point of downtuning...

[warlock]

Originally posted by Roel
Do you mean the same chord, or the chord an octave below that??

I mean the same chord on different tunings sound different.
For example if I played heavy metal I wouldn't downtune, but since I play doom/gothic I do.

Originally posted by Roel
As for those bands: never really cared about their sound. Hardly ever cared about there music. Guess that's also why I never saw the point of downtuning...

For each his own

[Roel]

Originally posted by warlock

I mean the same chord on different tunings sound different.

Still don't get it. You mean the same chord or fingering?

eg, a D powerchord would be on the 5 fret of the second string for regular tuning, for a tuning a whole tone lower that same chord would be 7th fret! Same fingering would give a C chord, which is lower thus sounds 'heavier'...

[Dolemite]

Thanks for the help everybody!

Roel,

I think its safe to say that those years of playing the chromatic scale on the sax did absolutely nothing for me.

My teacher would not be pleased...


Yes, I am tuning down (can't imagine tuning up that far!) and yes I did get a bit of rattling. I also tuned back up to normal when I was done to keep the string tension high and the neck straight - not sure if I needed to but it made me feel better.

BTW, I'm tuning down to play from my new A Perfect Circle tab book. Most of the songs are either in the C#-F#-B#-E#-G#-C# tuning or C#-F#-B-E-G#-C#. All I can say is, its a good thing they tell you how to play chords in these weird tunings because I would never figure it out! I hope this doesn't screw my limited ability to play chords in normal tuning though. I was pretty much stalled in learning for a while. I'm trying to learn on my own, no lessons for now. I think learning to play something I actually have interest in will definitely help, but again I hope the whole tuning thing doesn't fuck up what I've learned to this point while I'm working on this stuff.

Treeline,

Those books look useful. Are you recommending Alternate Tunings Guitar Essentials or Alternate Tunings Guitar Collection or both?

[warlock]

Roel yeah I mean the same fingering.
When I play a powerchord on the 5th fret I am actually playing a B chord etc.....

The point I was trying to make is that lower tuning = heavier sound. Some like it some don't.

[OneLouder]

From Master of Reality onwards Tony Iommi tuned down to C# and it sounded monstrously heavy. Im sure he probably used heavier gauge strings and had some truss rod twiddling involved tho........

[WEBCYAN]

A Perfect Circle tunes to C#

[toyL]

try these alternate tunings for "heavy" tones---CACGCE and CGDGCD...10s or 11s will work fine and no truss rod adjustments are needed....they also work great with acoustic and classical.
yada yada yada--8 years is not exactly a long time...regardless of the "purpose" one may have for tuning down, the result is an increase in the harmonic and tonal "range" attainable from the instrument--which allows the player to be more expressive....you can even go "higher" than the standard tuning if you're not afraid to use your pickups as "frets"...just a thought.

[Fangar]

Originally posted by Roel

Still don't get it. You mean the same chord or fingering?

eg, a D powerchord would be on the 5 fret of the second string for regular tuning, for a tuning a whole tone lower that same chord would be 7th fret! Same fingering would give a C chord, which is lower thus sounds 'heavier'...

I think Roel meant the 5th string... not the second.

Fangar

[charger]

From Masters of Reality onwards Tony Iommi tuned down to C# and it sounded monstrously heavy. Im sure he probably used heavier gauge strings and had some truss rod twiddling involved tho........

Actually, Iommi uses very light strings, I think I read they were 008's but they might be 009's. He doesn't tune down that low solely for the heaviness (although that's definitely an added benefit), but because he is missing the tips of a couple of fingers on his fretting hand, and he wears some sort of prosthetic devices... it was extremely hard for him to play guitar otherwise.

One of those little factoids that always makes me a little more grateful for my lot in life.