ECM8000 A/B Comparison

[Michael Jones]

Ok, couple of files here. Both of thes files are recordings of a 7'-2" Boston Semi Concert Grand Piano. They were both recorded dry. No EQ. No processing.
One file was done with a pair of ECM8000's.
The other was done with a pair of....... ahhhh!! I'm not gonna tell ya! See if you can tell me which one was the ECM8000's, and if you can tell me what mics are used in the other file.
Here's the 1st file:
http://artists3.iuma.com/site-bin/mp...es_-_TestA.mp3

And here's the second:
http://artists3.iuma.com/site-bin/mp...es_-_TestB.mp3

[TexRoadkill]

To be honest there's a too much hiss to really tell the difference. The first one was a little warmer but almost too muddy. The second one was brighter but had a slightly harsh mid range.

I have no idea which mic is being used. I'm curious though because I ordered the ECM's for acoustic guitar.

[Chris Shaeffer]

Aw, heck, I don't know. I'll bite anyway and take the knocks later when I'm shown up.

The ECM's, I would guess....wait! I shouldn't say it here, should I?

How do we do this?

Chris

[Michael Jones]

Too much hiss? Hmmm, I didn't notice that. Did you D/L or Stream the file, Tex?

Chris, just say it here, whatever you think.

[TexRoadkill]

I was downloading different files and yours had way more hiss than the others. It could have been on my end though. I was downloading it but my comp streams when they are downloading. I want to hear it clean so I'll try again later when I get home.

[Michael Jones]

Originally posted by TexRoadkill
I was downloading different files and yours had way more hiss than the others. It could have been on my end though. I was downloading it but my comp streams when they are downloading. I want to hear it clean so I'll try again later when I get home.

Hmm, ok, well, if that doesn't work, I could e-mail it to ya. Maybe?

[Chris Shaeffer]

Yeah, I noticed the hiss, too, but I've years of experience ignoring such things.

Ok, I'm not listening now, but this is what I remember from last night. I think the first clip is the ecm's because, despite the mud, it seems to have higher highs and lower lows. That would be consistent with the ecm's having a wider frequency response.

I have no idea what the other clip would be, then. I have no idea, anyway, I'm just posting my thoughts so that you can make fun of me later.

Chris

[Beezoboy]

Man thats a nice piano sound. Both of them.

My guess is that A is the ECM8000's. My basis for this is that there seemed to be less definition in it. Also B seemed to be alot warmer than A. So that is my best guess. I am going on the assumption that B is some nicer omni. I would love to be surprised though!!

How did you mic that piano is what I want to know. Are you in a large or small room? Please tell me. I record for a University here and I use two AKG C3000B's. They get a nice sound but I can never mic the piano by itself. I am recording in about a four days and would love to know how you got that sound. I just got my ECM8000's about a week ago.

Oh and the hiss really wasn't too bad for me. Didn't notice it until I read other posts and then turned my monitors up.

Very interested and very nice piano sound
Beezoboy

[J Wah]

I would say A was the EMC8000. Why? Because I thought B sounded better, a little brighter. And for $70 a pair they have to come in second. I am hoping B is the ECM8000 because I just got a pair. Both sounded nice and I didn’t notice much hiss. I was listening through computer speakers though.

[wes480]

A sounds pretty muddy to me as well...and the hiss is there on both of them (fairly noticeable, to me at least). Not sure where that would be coming from.

[CyanJaguar]

well, since you did not tell us which mic was the other one, and I dont have a scale of reference, I'll just tell you that I preffered the second recording by a very long shot.

It sounded more like the piano I would like to hear in a room. Also, better resolution, bigger sound, less hard high mids, just overall better.

Now , if it is the second one is the behringer, kudos to Harvey for recommending it.

[CyanJaguar]

by the way,

I did not think that either recording was muddy at all.

I think both recordings could sound better with maybe placement or eq.

Of course that is comparing it to this one

http://www.purgatorycreek.com/mp3/real.mp3

which is from
www.purgatorycreek.com

[charger]

I hear the hiss too. But what I also hear is that you have an awesome sounding piano. Just to be contrary, I'm going with B as the ECM 8000s, and A as... Oktava MC012?

[Slackmaster2K]

What was this recorded on? 4 track? Soundblaster? The mp3 encoding is also really whizzing things up.

I'm just going to give an uneducated guess here, listening with little headphones on a crap soundcard.

I think that the first one might be the ECM8000's, for the same reason people think it's not. I think it's boomy and muddy because you've got them inside the piano and they're picking up all sorts of nasty reflections. In this case I couldn't guess what the second clip is. But I'm just saying that to be cool.

If I were to guess on my first instincts, it sounds like the first clip is maybe something like a pair of SM57's, and the second clip is the ECM8000's.

In either case, it sure sounds like placement is a serious issue. And not knowing how you mic'd in each case makes it almost impossible...I mean you could be sitting on them in one case and sticking them in your ears in another...who's to know.

Slackmaster 2000

[Herm]

Im going to say that B is the 8000s there seems to be more air and room sound there.
and A is directional mics cause of the bass build up.

But then again A might be the omnis cause they are picking up more of the sound reflecting off'
of the top of the piano. if they are close.

[Michael Jones]

Man, Ya'll are the critical critics! j/k
I did notice the hiss after it was pointed out. Was late last night.
So, OK, I re-did both files, if you care to listen again.
Test A:
http://artists3.iuma.com/site-bin/mp...es_-_TestA.mp3
Test B:
http://artists3.iuma.com/site-bin/mp...es_-_TestB.mp3

Beezboy, I promise I'll tell you how it was done before your recording gig.

[Michael Jones]

Originally posted by Slackmaster2K

In either case, it sure sounds like placement is a serious issue. And not knowing how you mic'd in each case makes it almost impossible...I mean you could be sitting on them in one case and sticking them in your ears in another...who's to know.

Slackmaster 2000

OK, fair enough. Listen to this clip though, and tell me if you think placement is an issue:
http://artists3.iuma.com/site-bin/streammp3.m3u?190193

All of these piano clips were done using the mic placement.

[CyanJaguar]

were the mics placed differently?

Test b is wide stereo and test a seems mono.

I still prefer B by far

[Michael Jones]

Originally posted by CyanJaguar
were the mics placed differently?

Test b is wide stereo and test a seems mono.

No, same placement, but that ought to be a good clue.....

[Slackmaster2K]

I still think that third clip sounds a little mucky, though better than the two in question. Try listening to it on small headphones and you'll probably see what I mean.

Because b is so wide it really makes me think that the ECM's are A....but A is so much more boomy which isn't something I'd normally attribute to the ECM's.

Ok, I think that A is the ECM8000 and the B is a mic with a narrower pattern. In both cases I'm guessing that the mics are right up in the piano, which could account for the boominess in either case (reflections in the case of the ECM and proximity/reflections in the case of the card).

I think B is more desirable regardless.

Slackmaster 2000

[Michael Jones]

OK, I'll let you all of the hook now.
Test A was the ECM's. What I noticed about this clip was the lack of defination in the mids.
Test B Was a pair of TLM103's. Normally I get better results than that, but oh well, such is the life of a home recorder!
Both clips were recorded using Nuendo Software at 24 bit and an ART PRO MPA mic pre. I purposely recorded both clips with no EQ, just to make sure we could compare apples to apples.
Although the ECM's are Omni Directional, it seems to me that the very small diaphram size tends to accentuate this character.
I think with some more judicial mic placement, and proper EQ-ing, these mics will prove to be a very useful addition to any mic locker.

SlackMaster: Just curious, but why would I want to listen to anything other than a Walkman on a small pair of headphones?

[Michael Jones]

Oh yeah, I was going to add one other thing. Boston Grand Pianos are typically not Bright sounding instruments, they tend to be VERY warm, unlike something say, like a Yamaha Grand, which to me, are way too Bright!

[CyanJaguar]

Originally posted by Michael Jones
OK, I'll let you all of the hook now.
Test A was the ECM's.

I am not surprised

[CyanJaguar]

Originally posted by Michael Jones

Just curious, but why would I want to listen to anything other than a Walkman on a small pair of headphones?

Well, if you get some good small headphones, like the $500 grado rs-1s, as a recording writer said, they are like nearfields on steroids. Of course, you have to use a good (grado)headphone amp that'll probably run you maybe $300.

You'll hear tone and balance like never before. It also accentuates any kind of noise, and what better way to judge reverb.

[Michael Jones]

OK, well when he said small pair... I was thinking of walkman types.
I have a pair of Sennheiser HD 545 Reference Headphones, but I usually use those for vocalists to monitor the music while their doing their take.
I always heard it was a bad idea to try and mix with Headphones. Guess I'm confusing mixing with monitoring in this instance.
Thanks Jag.