buying a real piano...

[Roel]

I'm looking forward to buying a piano. I'll have to do with an upright, due to placing and money limits *sigh*, but it's still better than the digital monster.

So, what specific points do I have to look at? Anyone got an idea? I found some websites on this, with a few tricks like seeing how long a certain note sustains etc...

If you know tricks... Go ahead.

[VOXVENDOR]

You might want to take someone along who knows about wood rot and the visual inspection of wood etc...

Strings and hammers and other components are replacable, but If the wood is rotted, your F*cked!
(Unless you want to pay an arm and a leg for restoration..)

[musicsdarkangel]

for the price, yamaha's are most worth it, and steinway's have great sound too.

Just like what you like, feel, sound, easy(ness). Make sure the pedals work along with all the keys and all before buying =P of course.

[John Sayers]

Kawai make some nice pianos too.

cheers
john

[Roel]

I've played a couple of yamaha's. The U3 and the V-series (Vienna)... I like them both. U3 sounded a little more open, but less warm. But that is out of my pricerange... The V-series might be the way to go. I really liked the touch of the yamaha's.

I liked the sound of the petrof pianos. They are also a little cheaper than the yamaha's, but there touch is heavy, which is a big nono for this weak-wristed fella... The 131 has got renner-action, maybe it has a lighter touch... We'll see tomorrow...

Steinway is probably even more out of my budget as the yamaha's. But I will check 'em. Haven't seen any kawai's but that will change soon too...

Tomorrow I'm going to Brussels, to one of the biggest piano stores in Belgium... Fun day out. But probably quite expensive. Hope it's worth it.

Then I'll probably try to arrange meetings with some more local piano dealers. More of the second hand/technician dealers... See what they can offer. I should have a good idea of what a piano should sound like by then....

[TexRoadkill]

I used to sell pianos and they have pretty much gone the same way as all other instruments when it comes to manufacturing.

The vast majority of pianos are built by Young Chang(sp?), Sammick and Daiwoo. The other companies have them built to spec and slap their name on it. I havent really looked at the industry in about 10yrs but at that time the Young Changs were the best built.

If you want a true quality instrument you will need to get a Steinway, Bechstein, Schimmel or one of the other hand built pianos. They use better wood, construction, and usually have a Renner action or similar quality. A cheap action will limit your ability to play with any subtlety or dynamics.

For a Korean studio upright with around 50" strings (about the same length as a baby grand) you will spend around 5-7k US. For a hand made you can spend around 8-15k US. Those were the prices in the early 90's and may have risen since then.

I would strongly reccomend Schimmel if they are still around. They are not as well known and are a little cheaper but they have a very clear and delicate tone. Some people prefer the heavy sound of a Bechstein or Steinway but that is up to you.

Look closely at the quality of the Harp and the soundboard and the general fit of all the pieces. You can definately see a big difference between a quality piano and a cheap korean one.

How much do you want to spend? Are you buying new or used? I can give you some more tips if you like. If you are not going to get a hand made piano and record in a good room I would reccomend going with a good digital for best recording results.

Cheap pianos are only good for learning and practicing, not recording.

[DavidK]

Roel, you wanna buy mine? I have a spinet, good condition, just needs tuning. I use it when I teach, but I dont record with it. I am sure the shipping will only be about 9 million dollars, its a heavy motha.
You sure a young guy like you wants a piano? There a pain in the ass to move...

[Michael Jones]

Originally posted by DavidK

You sure a young guy like you wants a piano? There a pain in the ass to move...

I can second that! I have this piano here:
http://www.steinway.com/images/boston/gp_218.jpg
and umm...its upstairs!

[Roel]

Yes, thanks David, I was thinking about that too, but I still prefer it over a mandolin.

TexRoadKill, I have an A90 that I use for recording. I mainly need a piano because I'm going to study music theory (composition lateron) next year, and piano is a part of that... So it's not really for recording. I'm currently praciticing on the A90 and I really feel lost when I play a real piano... It's noisy, with all these real strings etc...

I played on some Young Changs and didn't really like them. The tone seemed rather shattered. Not really a dense solid tone. And it really lacked warmth. Maybe they have more expensive series too?

I was thinking of spending about 5000$ max. I still need to have money left to pay my studies next year. And I really don't know if I will buy new or second hand. Today I'm going to that big piano store, see what the price is for a good piano, and what is in my reach, and then I'll check the second hand market, compare and see if the pricedifference is worth it... I read somewhere on the net that the prices don't really decrease alot.

So, I'm on a budget, and need a piano that is good for practicing, on a decent level. Suggestions?

Thanks!

[Michael Jones]

There's a book called "The Piano Book". I forget who wrote it, but it lists EVERY piano EVER made. All the makes, all the models. It explains the querks each model has, how much they should cost, when they were made, and what to expect from both new and used pianos. If you're going to buy a used piano, get it from a dealer. I wouldn't buy a piano from an individual, unless I could take a tuner or technician along with me. Most pianos do appreciate over time, but not all, and it depends on how well they were cared for. Expect on having to have the piano tuned at least twice a year; this should be considered a minimum.


I'd stay away from "Young Chang" pianos as well. I had a Young Chang grand, and although it had a nice warm tone to it, it was very noisey. Young Chang makes an OK entry level piano, but if you're going after an upright, I'd consider a Baldwin Acrosonic. This was my first piano, and I played the heck out of it! Consider also, Yamaha or Boston Uprights. Stay away from Spinnets, and anything Korean made!

[DavidK]

Roel, cant you just use a piano at the conservatory? Thats what all the theory/comp guys did when I was in school. Plus, hanging at the Music school is a great way to meet the babes. Five thousand seems really high for somebody who is going to school, maybe a used one for five hundred, as long as it can stay in tune.

[TMHill]

This is just my opinion. I am one pianist among many, and we all have our views. This is what goes through my mind when buying a piano for myself, or when assisting others in their purchase.

With regard to touch - what level of pianism do you want to get to? If you want to have a good depth of control, you need to get a piano which feels "heavy" to play. (There are springs that repel the keys which can be of varying strength). This will be hard to play - more tiring - but if you ever want to be in a position to get a really beautiful sound out of the instrument, then you need those fingers as good and strong as they can be.

However, if you just want to learn how to knock out a riff, harmonise a tune, learn harmonic structures, and have an instrument that has a vast dynamic and pitch range - and is something to really grapple with (in the way that keyboards simply aren't) then DEFINITELY find one with a lighter touch.

Next, concentrate on what the keys feel like to depress. Does it feel like wood rubbing on wood? or does it feel clean? The wood rubbing feeling will be on more expensive pianos that will eventually play exactly how you want them to - but there's an awful lot of "action noise" in that. If you ever did want to record it, it could sound like you breathed out every time you played a note.

Next - listen carefully to an individual note in at least three different registers (bass, mid and top). The guys in the shops playing Chopin are NOT testing the pianos to buy. They are showing off. Play the same note (and maybe its neighbours) LOTS of times. Its the attack too harsh? (this can indicate worn hammer felts, or cheap hammer woods) Do you like the "colour" of the note? What's the decay on the string like? Is it too quick? (crap strings) or does it vibrate way too long, sonding all cheap and ringy? When you release the note, is the sound cut off instantly? or is there a very subtle "buzz" as the string dampens? If you play a bass note REALLY loudly, does the quality of the note diminish?

The actual piano structure is also very important. What space is it going into? If its a small room, get a small piano (I'm talking height, not keboard range). Taller pianos make a much more lovely noise in a warehouse, but cause too many harmonic problems in small rooms. (Some people don't believe me on this. Go into any conservatoire in the world, and go to their practice rooms. They don't do this to save money.) And here's something no-one tells you about - get a proper piano stool, sit on it in front of the piano you like. Adjust the height of the stool so that, with elbows at your side (not that you keep them there), your hands resting on the keys - with your wrists straight - you are in a comfortable position for playing. Then look at some music on the stand. Are you having to look at a funny angle? Because if, like me, you're really tall, and you get a short piano, then you are constantly having to look down at the music, which is spectacularly bad for your neck and back.

Next, are the black keys standing proud enough on the keyboard? There should be as much depth to them as the white keys. Do they feel the same to play as the white keys? Do thes key themselves feel cheap and plastic?

Finally, new vs s.hand. A new piano becomes yours. It starts to respond better to the way you play. But a second hand piano can yield a greater instrument for the same price. For a beginner, I would almost always suggest a second hand piano. (One thats not too old, though. Just old enough to get a good reduction!) The thing to remember is that, across the range of the keyboard, the strings, felts and woods have become more accustomed to the way that the previous owner(s) played. (Again - people don't believe this. Take ANY piano that is played regularly by an average standard pianist. Listen very carefully to the black notes and the white notes. The black notes will almost always have a different quality to the whites - because they simply haven't been hit as many times.) This is not something a beginner usually needs to care too much about - and indeed some recording pianists actually prefer this random element, as it adds character to the overall tone.

Oh yes - think about after sales care, too. You seem to have a fair amount to spend on a piano - they should at least check it over once a year, and throw in a few free tunings, too.

That's it from me. Its great to hear someone wants to learn to play the piano and compose!

All the very best
Tom

[Sonic Misfit]

Roel,

If there is any way that you can afford or fit a baby grand, you might want to consider it. I have had a couple spinnets and console models over the years, but none compared to the baby grand I have now.

It was a sacrifice, but well worth it. Besides, in two or three years, you'll be wanting one anyway.

[Michael Jones]

Originally posted by Sonic Misfit
Roel,

If there is any way that you can afford or fit a baby grand, you might want to consider it. I have had a couple spinnets and console models over the years, but none compared to the baby grand I have now.

It was a sacrifice, but well worth it. Besides, in two or three years, you'll be wanting one anyway.

That is so true, but room/size constraints may be an issue. I rented a piano once for a while, and although I didn't buy from the same company, the would have credited the rent towards a purchase. I think I paid $35-$40 bucks a month for the rental, and could rent it for as long as 3 years.

[TexRoadkill]

Just make sure you know who REALLY makes the piano you are buying if you go with a Japanese or "American" brand.

A yamaha could be a young chang.

A Baldwin can be a Sammik.

I would try to find a used 51-54" Studio Schimmel or Steinway if you can find a good deal on one. The Studio's have longer strings, larger sound boards and can sound about as good as a baby grand. They usually have simpler cases so you are paying for more piano and not fancy trim.

[Roel]

WOW!!! I NEVER expected so many good responses here... Thanks!!

David... I can probably use a piano at the conservatory; but the main problem is I have been playing an electronic piano for over 3 years. If I play on a REAL piano, I'm totally lost. So I need a piano to practice for my intrance exam.
Also, at the moment I'm not a student. Just a workerguy like most of you. Next year I'm a poor student again. I could buy a cheaper piano, which would allow me to eat a little more the next years, but on the other hand, I'm pretty spoiled with the good tunings and sound of my electronic piano. It really is the feel that is missing there...
I'm still doubting between a good and a cheaper model... The thing is, I will only be at home in weekends, and in the week I can practice at the conservatory. On the other hand, if I buy a good one now, it will still be good when I graduate... Very hard choices...

TMHill, fantastic answer. Wow. Thanks. Gotta read that a few more times. What I can tell you already is that I need a light touch. I have very weak wrists; so heavy touch will just kill me... Oh well... I'm getting used to the pain...

Michael. I don't have the time to order and read the book.... Wish I had. And it took me 2 months to get my mother to allow me to put an upright in the livingroom. I'm not gonna try the same thing for a baby grand.

Sonic; I want a real grand. Concert grand, everything, but I'm still on a budget and placing...

I will look for the Studio Schimmel or Steinways. Got a few more shops to visit. Also talked to the conductor of our fanfare, he 'knows' a guy in a shop somewhere... Might get a good deal there...

Keep it coming! Cool...

[Roel]

Oh... Forgot a part...

For now, the yamaha's are winning. The V118 sounds good; like the action too, and is still just in my budget. The U1 is a little more, and it might be worth the little extra. It's hard to compare. We put the V118 against the wall, which makes a hell of a difference, the U1 was standing in the middle of the room.
The V124 (more expensive than U1, out of my budget) was also in the middle, and didn't sound as good as the U1. So that would mean (since the V124 is just the V118 but bigger) that the U1 would definately be the one... 'Till now that is.

Didn't like the Kawai price-equivalent for the U1. Sounded to clean, to nice, not enough power to it compared to the U1. (Kawai was also against the wall, which gives the piano even more power...)

On the other hand, the room there was quite big. Maybe the U1 would be a little too much in our living room; so the V118 might be it anyways...

I also went to another store, that also had some 2nd hands. Didn't like anything he had. And almost all his piano's were slightly out of tune. Didn't matter for the shopkeeper. He could hardly play anyway...

[LongWaveStudio]

casio anyone???.......:-) :-)

[TMHill]

Only if its got a cool demo tune played on that Oingy-Boingy brass sound with realistic drums accompaniment.

[VOXVENDOR]

Why not be like Frank Mills...

Build a beautiful Steinway-like piano, but instead of it being fuctional, just put a flat shelf where the keys should be, and Put your casio there....

The crowd doesn't even know the difference..


(By the way, thats a true story... Frank Mills Piano is actually like that....)

[Roel]

I have been thinking about that too... But I think the jury at the conservatory will get pretty suspicious when I insist on bringing my own piano and PA rig...

[VOXVENDOR]

Here is a quote directly from Frank's Website.....

"As for his performing, he rarely plays a real piano anymore."

"I have my own piano; it's built in. It looks exactly like a concert Grand and my synth slides right into it. It flies with me, and I get the same piano every night. No surprises, no tuning. And it's got bells and whistles on it that a regular piano doesn't have.

"No doubt that there's nothing like a good, tuned-up Steinway - but how often do you get a good, tuned-up Steinway ? Unless you 're at the Met."

-From www.frankmills.com


Cool eh....

Joe

[Roel]

Actually, I got a tuned Steinway grand to play a 'concert' when I was about 10. Every student had to play a small piece... Hehe.

I guess it really is the kind of music that he plays. Haven't seen a classical recital on a grand that is not tuned (Have seen a symphonic orchestra that couldn't play in tune though). Starting from a certain level up, playing classical on a digital doesn't work anyways. Certainly not when you have to go plucking in it.

[LongWaveStudio]

you really want a real piano?

is it cus of the feel or the sound? or both?

cus the Korg SG Piano is available in rack or piano form and has stunning sounds.

You could get the rack and a weighted controller, or the piano version with weighted keys.

it's a really good sound, check it out. hehe, no micing up.

i know there's nothing like the real thing, but if you're not that fussy, you could give it a try.

[CyanJaguar]

of about 18 upright pianos in the practice rooms in my school(small school) the Baldwin is the best sounding.