Latency in Sonar, Soundfonts

[tcdave]

I recently purchased Sonar after using PA9 and I have to say Sonar Rocks! Also, I purchased LiveSynth Pro (full version) and wanted to play the sounds in real time. I dont want to record the midi parts and then assign the sounds later. The way I write songs is to play around with different sounds and see what I come up with. The only way I was to play in real time was to set cakewalk with a song then set up LSP (one channel for midi, one audio out) and just play. I had no sound at this time until I noticed that I had to hit the play button. The song didnt play but I got sound out of LSP. (why does Sonar do that? you have to hit the play button twice? ) So that I have sound next is the latency issue....

The latency is really bad......

What are some ways to get rid of the latency. I am using a Midiman 4X4 USB and I am not sure about the drivers. I read somewhere that using a midi interface with WDM drivers have an latency issue. Does the Midiman have slow drivers? Is running midi thru the SB Live! card better for latency?

Thanks
tcdave

PS - What do you think about the Soundfont.com's "Soundfont Player" for $29.95. I like the fact that I can just bring up the program and start playing around with the sounds. Since I am getting alot of soundfonts now, I think it might be good for organizing them too.

[vicevursa]

What operating system are you using? The WDM drivers are supposed to lower latency times...

Vice

[tcdave]

Thanks for the reply. The operating system is Windows 98SE. I should read more in the Windows 98 manual about WDM drivers to get familiar with it.

I found some of the info right in the manual. I have SONAR POWER and it didnt say too much. So it occured to me to look in the manual (sonar power dependant I guess) The Sonar Owners Manual says:

"If you play softsynths in real time from a MIDI controller, you'll get noticeably better performance of you use WDM audio interface drivers instead of the older-MME type. The lower the latency of WDM drivers provides quicker real-time response to note-on/off and other commands. Playback of recorded MIDI data is not affected by choosing a WDM driver."

Ok, with that said. Does the SB Live! have these WDM drivers? I bet they do because everyone I have seen is using the SB live card.

What about the MIDIMAN 4X4 USB? Do you think that it would slow things down?

thanks
tcdave


BTW, ABS is a really great deal if you are looking for a new computer. Lifetime Labor and Customer support, 3 years parts. They use top of the line parts. The computer is from ABS and is less than 6 months old and I have had no problems. I have an AMD Athlon 1.4 Gh with a SB live! card. I called ABS and they built it for me. Check the prices.

http://www.buyabs.com/systems/performaamd.shtml

[A1MixMan]

First off, you shouldn't need to use the LiveSynth Pro if you have a soundblaster live card.
The LiveSynth Pro is so you don't need a SB live card to play soundfonts.
You can play soundfonts in real time with the SB live.

Also, I couldn't find any WDM drivers for my Live card and Win98se.
So I upgraded to WinXP Pro and a Delta 1010 soundcard and LiveSynth Pro. Works great.

I also have the 4x4 midisport, I have had no problems with latency due to it.

A1MixMan

[Paul881]

You will need to upgrade your o/s to XP if you want to use DXi stuff in real time, without latency using WDM drivers. We all hope that one day Creative/microsoft will astonish us with win 98 WDM drivers but don't hold your breath!

But A1MixMan is right when he says that soundfonts should operate okay with win 98. I have a s/blaster Live! card and win 98 and am an avid soundfont user with a midi controller keyboard. No latency at all that I can see. Its only when I go to use real-time Dxi fx in conjunction with my soundfonts that I have the problem with latency.

Hope this helps

[A1MixMan]

Hey Paul which midi controller did you finnally get?

I just bought a Yamaha S80, a little more than a controller, but it works great!

A1MixMan

[tcdave]

Originally posted by A1MixMan
First off, you shouldn't need to use the LiveSynth Pro if you have a soundblaster live card. The LiveSynth Pro is so you don't need a SB live card to play soundfonts. You can play soundfonts in real time with the SB live.

A1,

I realized that I didnt need LiveSynth before I bought it. I know you can just add the soundfonts with either PA9 or Sonar. What I really liked about Livesynth Pro was that it was simple to use and was an easy way to organize soundfont banks. Although, I really like the EMU/Creative "Soundfont Player" for auditioning sounds. What I am not sure is....Q: "if LSP is DXi (and DXI is supposed to be better, even faster than VST) Should'nt it be better, in the terms of latency, than just running your soundfonts through Sonar directly?"

Also, I am planning to upgrade to a MOTU 828...someday....I would need to get LSP then.

Thanks
tcdave

[Paul881]

I don't think you should perceive any difference in quality using LSP over using soundfonts directly loaded into your Live! card. And with win 98, you can use your soundfonts without any latency.

If LSP is DXi based (which I don't know), you will have to upgrade to xp to solve the latency problem. You will also have to use LSP (as you know) if you use a different sound card than the Creative soundblaster or audigy cards.

Hey Mixerman, Happy New Year. Santa didn't bring me a midi controller, wifey says I had spent "too much" on gear last year so I got socks instead. So I am still using a friends Casio keyboard which I use only as a midi controller (awful sounding standard instruments but I like the casio chord player! Forgive me, but I am a guitarist.)

Rock on in 2002!

[Paul881]

I have just checked and yes, LSP is DXi based, so you will either need to ditch it and use your sound card directly loaded with soundfonts, or upgrade to win XP. You pays your money and takes your choice I'm afraid.

[A1MixMan]

tcdave,
Paul is right LSP is a DXi, hence you will have latency.
Alot without WDM drivers, and just a little even with them.

Are you loading the soundfonts into your sbl card from within Sonar? This is where you should be doing it from.
Options>soundfonts
This will load the soundfont into system ram and allow you access to them without any latency at all.
So with latency in mind, your SoundBlaster Live card will have none, regardless of the drivers involved.
I'm not sure, but DXi's and VST's should be comparable in almost every respect, with wdm drivers of course.
Hope this helps, any more questions, just ask.

A1MixMan


P.S. Paul, so you're using your new socks as a midi controller?

Sounds interesting...

[Paul881]

Yeah Mixerman, thats right! Cos my wife says my musical output "socks" anyway! (or did she say sucks?). Anyway, I am just a lonely, misunderstood, muso with a delicate ego, without any artistic support at home. No musical appreciation some people, eh?

Anyway, you are right, don't mess with managing and loading soundfonts in the sound card, use Sonar direct as you in fact advised me some months back. Good advice. I'll check out the Yammie controller that you got. Maybe the Easter bunny will call and bring me one?

[A1MixMan]

The Yamaha S80 is alot more than just a midi controller.
At $1400.00 it better be more than a controller.
But, I really bought it for the feel of the keys, and the fact that it has 88 keys.
It has some great sounds in it, even a place for expansion boards, but for the most part I will be using it to controll my soft synths. DXi's.
I'm sure you can find one alot cheaper for your needs.
Besides, at 55 lbs, I doubt the Easter Bunny could even carry it!

http://www.yamahas80.com/

[tcdave]

A1,

So what happens when I scratch the SB live card and get a MOTU 828? If I use LiveSynth Pro with the 828, I heard that you no longer have a latency issue. Is this true?

thanks
tcdave

[tcdave]

Originally posted by A1MixMan
tcdave,
Paul is right LSP is a DXi, hence you will have latency.
Alot without WDM drivers, and just a little even with them.

Also, I thought that having DXi was supposed to be a good thing?

tcdave

[Shazukura]

I dont think my experience relates directly to yours, but if someone finds this thread in a search this might be handy info....

When I got my first MIDI keyboard I also got some software to help me learn to play piano (Voyerta "Teach Me Piano".) Unfortunately I had horrendous lag using the software. The same was true for any thing I did that included using the keyboard as an external control surface for a softsynth. (If you've used that software you know how aggrivating being lagged might be, so I had to come up with some kind of fix.)

The fortunate part, is that my problem was just one of those cheesey soundcards that's built into the motherboard. I don't think it supported hardware MIDI, so all the softsynths were relying heavilly on the CPU. Anyway, to make a long story short I got a $50 SoundBlaster card and I went from 1-5 seconds of lag to miliseconds -- I can't really tell there is lag anymore (and my scores in T.M.P. went way up.)

-Shaz

[Paul881]

Once again, this is the situation:

Use win 98, soundblaster s/c and soundfonts = no latency (if your set up is right and "tuned")

Use win 98, + any Dxi stuff (e.g. LSP) = latency

The ONLY cure for latency in the set-up you describe TCDave is to change your operating system to xp which has the WDM driver support. If you want to use the MOTU soundcard, you will need to use LSP to give you soundfont support then you will suffer latency unless you change your operating system to xp.

Dxi is a good thing, I use it to support fx but not in real-time cos I use win 98 which would give me latency the minute I try to use it in real time. And A1MixMan will say its a great thing, he uses it in real time cos he's got win xp. (Its okay for him, he's rich, smart and talented and he gets to chop his bedroom cupboards about to run sound cables to all his bedrooms to create noise free zones! )

My advice to you right now is to put aside the LSP, load soundfonts in Sonar and enjoy the fruits of your creativity right away. Later on, If you want to upgrade then upgrade your operating system to xp so you can use DXi stuff in real-time (LSP). You can also choose a new sound card at the same time or later.

You do not need LSP with the set-up you have currently, its an encumbrance, not a help.

Nice thought Shazakura, putting down your experience for future search help. When I use dxi fx with my soundblaster Live! and win 98, I get latency that is borderline acceptable. And that makes it so annoying! So near yet so far.

A1MixMan, I checked out the Yammie s80. Nice tool! Too much for me though, I'm looking at the Evolution at around $180. I'll swop you anytime? LOL

[A1MixMan]

Shazukura,
Of course, that "lag" IS latency.
Which is directly related to the drivers of the soundcard which must be used on a OS that can handle the drivers.

tcdave,
According to the Moto 828 web site:

"Drivers for Mac & PC - for all popular Macintosh and Windows audio software (ASIO/WDM/Wave drivers)."

So you WILL have WDM drivers with this soundcard, then you will need an OS that can take advantage of the WDM drivers. (WinXP, Win2000, there may be others).

This statement on the website in NOT talking about the same kind of latency that we are.
"With built in phantom-powered mic pre-amps and no-latency monitoring,"

Also, this soundcard is built for FIREWIRE input, so you must have a firewire input on your computer. As opposed to USB or even a parallel or serial port.


And yes DXi's are GREAT!
I used to be big on soundfonts(I still use them), but the software synth's are really fun to play, sound great and are very flexible.

Paul said: "And A1MixMan will say its a great thing, he uses it in real ime cos he's got win xp. (Its okay for him, he's rich, smart and talented and he gets to chop his bedroom cupboards about to run sound cables to all his bedrooms to create noise free zones!)"

Now that's funny! ...and true, but you forgot "Good Looking".
Here's what Paul is talking about:
http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/sho...threadid=39403

I am using the Delta 1010 sound card and it works great. Got mine for $499.00 on the net.
http://www.midiman.net/products/m-audio/delt1010.php

This whole subject can be confusing so ask away if you have more questions.
A1MixMan

P.S. Paul, your post was very good, I am learning from you
now! ;-)

[Jamie Jukosky]

MOTU 828 does not have any MIDI capabilities. MOTU has a lot of other interfaces that do. I have an 828 and it works well as a portable studio with my laptop.

[A1MixMan]

DXi synths are unique in that you need to have a midi track AND an audio track setup in Sonar.
In my setup I have the midi sent from my keyboard to a 4x4 usb midisport into the computer, then the midi output is sent to the soundcard through the audio track. In this way you do not need midi capabilities in your sound card.
Although in my Delta 1010 it has a midi input, I do not use it.

A1MixMan

[tcdave]

A1 and Paul,

You have been a big help and .......

TTTTHHHHHAAAAAAANNNNNKKKKKKSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Sorry I don't have much time to write on this board. I got NAMM ( www.namm.com ) show passes for the weekend and I have been busy working 11 hour days at my dayjob. I plan on visiting the Cakewalk booth as well as any other vendor that might have anything to do with Sonar, DAW and Synths.

I like these conventions because I get to talk to the manufacturer, watch seminars/demos and get free stuff. I would like to visit the Roland, EMU and Sonic Implants booths. So I am out for the whole weekend.

Cya!

tcdave

[Paul881]

Glad to be of help

Enjoy NAMM, you lucky, lucky guy! Whatever you do, please post anything you find of interest back here. News, techie stuff, anything.

Say hello to the 12 tones inc. (Cakewalk) guys for me at the show. Tell em we'd all like a 50% discount on Sonar, backdated.

Mr mixerman, happy you enjoyed my post. I would have mentioned your good looks but it skipped my mind (can't think why!). BUt I don't see how I have anything that you can learn from me. Hey, I've just noticed, I'm a Senior Member now. How cool is that? Does that mean my musicianship will improve? Some hope!

Paul

[Paul881]

Ahhh shucks, all confused again! This posting has got me doing some research and of course, I now have more questions than I had to begin with.

This whole post started off discussing latency problems, right? Well, it would seem that there has been some discussion in other forums as to whether changing s/blaster standard drivers for ASP drivers will improve/solve the problem for win 98 users. And whether MIDI is good with ASP drivers or not. And then there's talk about ASIO drivers and whether they will assist soundblaster users with latency.

Can anyone throw some light on these areas? What exactly are ASP & ASIO drivers?

BTW, my soundblaster Live! platignum 5.1 card driver is version 4.12.01 0905. Is this the latest version? The creative site doesn't list the version history numbers.

[AlChuck]

APS, not ASP. It's the Audio Production Studio, the Emu product that is basically a Sound Blaster Live Platinum with a few better components and a much higher price. You can hack them to work with the "regular" Sound Blaster card. The advantage is that they have working ASIO drivers.

ASIO -- not sure what it's an acronym for (Audio Streaming Input/Output?), but it's a driver model that, like WDM, bypasses the standard multimedia drivers for lower latency. It is supported by Logic and Cubase and others but not by Cakewalk/SONAR.

[Paul881]

Okay, many thanks AlChuck, understand all that. So what do the members think about changing from an official Creative driver to a hacked Emu APS driver? Isn't this seemingly the answer to our "no latency" prayers for users of soundblaster and win 98? Can anyone post any of their experiences? Is it worth a try?

[AlChuck]

There seems to be a lot of confusion about WDM and Windows 98 SE. I haven't gone there myself yet because it seems that the Delta drivers seemed to be somewhat buggy for the longest while. Also, M Audio acts as if they have no WDM drivers for Windows 98. I know that the official word is that Windows 98 SE does support WDM. There is also a WDM update for WIndows 98 SE; see

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q242937

They used to post a patch thing there but now they say you have to contact Microsoft Product Support. Here's what they say in the article:

"A supported fix is now available from Microsoft, but it is only intended to correct the problem described in this article and should be applied only to systems experiencing this specific problem.

"To resolve this problem, contact Microsoft Product Support Services to obtain the fix. For a complete list of Microsoft Product Support Services phone numbers and information on support costs, please go to the following address on the World Wide Web:


http://support.microsoft.com/directory/overview.asp

"NOTE : In special cases, charges that are normally incurred for support calls may be canceled, if a Microsoft Support Professional determines that a specific update will resolve your problem. Normal support costs will apply to additional support questions and issues that do not qualify for the specific update in question."

So it sounds like they are making it a little more difficult than usual to get this.

There's some info about this issue in these threads (at other sites, sorry, Dragon -- but I couldn't find any relevant links here):

http://www.audioforums.com/forums/Fo...ML/001543.html
http://www.audioforums.com/forums/Fo...ML/000064.html
http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/ultim...c&f=1&t=002776

It's unclear to me that the WDM drivers listed as "for Win 2000 and XP only" are or would be any different than drivers listed as "for Win 98 SE" or if the vendors are just trying to keep as far away as possible from the hassles involved in getting them to work under that OS.

The bottom line for me is that it appears that WDM drivers should work in Windows 98 SE but getting there is problematic. Personally, I've decided to wait until I get Windows XP sometime this year, probably, before worrying about it.