Copyright

[Ashura]

I had a question for anyone who might know about song copyrights and laws. If I wanted to use a fragment of a line from another song (for example, if I wanted to use Sting's "Every move your make..." just those first 4 words) are there any copyright issues associated with this? I am not going to be directly sampling the line from the artist's album, but have someone else sing that fraction live. Anything I should be worried about? Exactly at what point does copyright infringment become an issue? Thanks...

[Nadelius]

ist that the most obvious line in the song?

[Ashura]

Right, that's what I'm asking. It is a very well known line, but are there implications to using those 4 words? If I took a whole verse, a hook, the tune, or even half a paragraph I could understand that there would be licensing agreements involved, but exactly at what point does it become an issue? I know alot of rappers put bits of lyrics in their music -- like that new Lost Boyz song, at the end they go "Sorry, Ms. Jackson!!!" Would the use of that 3 word line from Outkast mean that they'd have to pay a royalty?

[ifpo238]

'kay. I don't know the answer to this question, and I'm sure that somebody will post it before I even submit this post, but here's a suggestion, anyway.

Somebody at the Harry Fox Agency should be able to answer this for you. They might want more clarification as to whether you're going to be trying to sound like Sting (same melody? is it a reference to the other song? or was it just a coincidence?). Note that I don't know if they'll ask those things, and, again, I'm not a lawyer nor will I pretend to give out legal advice. Anyway, I got the following contact info from http://www.nmpa.org/contact.html.

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HFA
711 Third Avenue
New York, NY 10017
Tel: 212-370-5330, Fax: 212-953-2384

Local Telephone in Los Angeles: 323-466-3861
Local Telephone in Nashville: 615-242-4173

Questions about HFA or a license request?
Contact the Client Services Department at clientrelations@harryfox.com or call 212-834-0100.
========

-j

[Ashura]

Hey, thanx for the info, that was really alot of help!

[PaulB]

I'm not completely clear here so I'll ask. Are you saying to use that line WITH the melody from the song or use it singing it to another melody, YOUR melody. I know its only six notes but if its their melody, I think you've got a copyright problem even though
you are singing it and not sampling it from their record.

Although some people seem to think so, there doesn't seem to be any legally accepted number of minimum notes that a writer can use and NOT get sued. I think if you were just going to use the line and not their melody, then you should have no problem but that's just my take and I'm no lawyer. I just like keeping up with this stuff.

PaulB

[dachay2tnr]

Here's what the US Copyright Office has to say...

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How much of someone else's work can I use without getting permission?

Under the fair use doctrine of the U.S. copyright statute, it is permissible to use limited portions of a work including quotes, for purposes such as commentary, criticism, news reporting, and scholarly reports. There are no legal rules permitting the use of a specific number of words, a certain number of musical notes, or percentages of a work. Whether a particular use qualifies as fair use depends on all the circumstances.
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So it sounds like, "it depends."

Remeber, though, George Harrison got sued (and lost, I think) over the three notes in My Sweet Lord (vs. He's So Fine). And he didn't even use the same words).

[DavidK]

Ashura, copyright laws are vague. However, Mr. Sting will only get involved if you are making shitloads of money. If you plan on making shitloads of money off of a sting tune, contact a lawyer. Sting does not own a copyright on the words "Every move you make", It is very difficult to copyright something so vague.

Dachay, Harrison stole an entire song, almost note for note. "She's so fine" and " my sweet lord" are the same tune, not just 3 notes. Harrison paid dearly for that one, and I bet he didnt know he stole it, just had the tune in his head.

[sport]

I don't think there's any scientific formula that determines what constitutes copyright infringement. If you sang those words with the same melody I would guess this would get you in trouble. If you used those lyrics with a melody and phrasing that weren't in any way close to the original it shouldn't be an issue. It might be seen as a "nod" to sting.

On the other hand you could sing one word of someone else's song but if you were doing their exact melody it could be a problem. For example-imagine if someone came out with a song that had the word "slave" sung just like Britney Spears did it. It's only one word but it's such a hook i'd bet you couldn't get away with it...

[TrutH]

OK Guys I shall try to help you out. I shall be writing my thesis on copyright and law so i hope that this will clarify the matter. I will continue updating you on the issue as i collect information. I intend to kick big publisher ass because they are exploiting the market and abusing their dominant position.

You are right to say that the question is vague.

1. Copyright ideally protects the "expression of ideas"

2. For a work to attract copyright the author must have invested sufficient "skill and labour" in creating his product. If you sample a sound it is said not to involve sufficient skill and labour to attract copyright. I disagree. As we all know, sampling involves skill and labour, sometimes even more then reproducing a sound acoustically.

3. There is an infrigment of copyright when a "substantial taking" is made. Here lies the problem. WHAT IS A SUBSTANTIAL TAKING? I describe it as the use of a part of a work that gives it identity. Eg. You may take the words "HEY YOU" and there will be possibly be a substantial taking whilst you may take a three minute part of a music solo and there would not be an infringment. It is all subjective. There are no set of rules. The only clear rule is that if a reasonable person sees a clear similarity between the two parts you are infringing copyright. In my opinion, copyright laws are too rigid. Did you know that most copyright conventions were formulated with the help of the international copyright organisations that are there to protect the big publishers. They cant be bothered about the artist. The publisher usually acquires the rights and the artist then has no say. These forms of copyright laws limit creativity and fill up the major publishers' bank accounts.

4. Also important. The song would be more prone to aggression if there were loss of earnings on part of the copyright holder. I would not be to scared, just make sure that the parts are not sampled and are creative enough to give them your individuality.

HOPE IT IS CLEAR NOW. If you need more help you know where to find me.

The truth has spoken. I would like some feedback

[DavidK]

Truth, very well said, we hope you post more around here!

Sport, there IS a formula for copyright: If a Schmuck is making money, the Recording industry wants it all!!!

Good topic, interesting replys.

How bout this one: If a violin player makes a CD without a contract, even if his name is on the CD, and it sells ten million copies, does the violinist make any money? Nope!!!!

[TrutH]

Thanks D.

Good picture. It depends on the violinist. If she has hairy legs no!

Copyright does not need to be registered. the moment that a work is fixed into material form it attracts copyright. The owner of this copyright is the author. If the violinist is the author he is protected. He could sue the publisher and gets the money if he proves ownership.

If he was just a performer i doubt that he would be eligible to copyright unless he produced the performance.
Let us say a bethoven song performed by that person.

Check you my thread about "how to get proof of copyright ownership".

[Ashura]

Whoa, I thought this was a dead topic after ifpo238's reply!!! I doubt I'll be making mad loot on this, I'm no one in this industry (just yet! I hope...). I just want to cover my ass in all situations. I don't want to get sued by anyone when it comes to this topic. I have this song, and the one line of this mainstream song fits in perfect for my hook. My plan was to get someone else, possibly a female voice, to actually do it. The tune for that one line would be a similar tune, the words would be the same, it'd be just the 4 or so words. And ya, like Sport said, it'd be more of a nod or shout out than anything else.

[mrbigputts]

good info here....thanx.