16 bit 24 bit

[Epi Paul '00]

Hello,
Is the word out there that my new Fostex VF08 at 16 bit
isn't going to put out a great sounding CD. Is 16 bit really
going to be that much worse than a 24 bit system? Tell me
like it is I can take it. I've wasted money before.

Thank you Epi

[Blue Bear Sound]

To some degree, it's not the bitcount, it's what you do with the bits you got!

Once you got the basics of recording techniques down, THEN you can start worrying about tweaking word size..............

Bruce

[Henri Devill]

I agree with Mr Bear..Also alot of good sounding records have been done in the 16 bit..


Don

[bizarre]

Hey Bear/Devill - now you have taken the time to answer instead of givin' a "search the f...... board" reply, give the full answer
what Bear means " it's not the bitcount, it's what you do with the bits you got! " is - when you process a 16 bit file, you have 16 " steps " to write information in. If you process a 24 bit file you have 24 " steps " to write the information in, meaning it'll be more acurate ( hey - I'm a foreinger - dunno how to explain this in english )
bizz

[Epi Paul '00]

Hello again,
I thank you all for your reply they have shed some light.
But I am interested in more details if someone would care
to share. Thanks again.

Epi

[dr.colossus]

i posted the same question in the newbies section a couple of weeks ago and got loads of "techie" responses... i'm looking into the vf160....any how the deal still doesn't seem to make much sense to me, i mean think about it, cds are 16 bit right, and its not asthough the cd is going to be listened to through a $100000 stereo system, most people only own shitty little shelf units... onces that 24 bit recording has been dropped to 16 for the cd, then played through an el cheapo shelf unit, do you think anyone is going to be able to tell the diff between an initial 16 bit and a 24 bit recording???? the only concern is dvd technology which is 24 bit, but thats a while down the line... hope this helps

dr. colossus

[Blue Bear Sound]

You're forgetting about all the processing that may go into the tracking/mixing/mastering before the track gets "dumbed-down" to 16-bit......

It is best to maintain the highest resolution possible (especially if using digital signal processing) all the way thru the recording process until the very end (where it finally goes to 16-bit/44khz).

A good analogy would be a graphic.... if you start with a poor resolution graphic and you want to size it up, the results will be very poor. If you start with a hi-res graphic and size it up, the results will be significantly better.

Same with audio - maintain hi-resolution throught the recording process and you lose far less during processing (the "size it up" part in the graphic analogy) than if you started at a lower resolution to begin with...........

A bit of oversimplification, but at least it's a non-technical description of why hi-res makes sense even in a 16-bit world..........

Bruce

[Epi Paul '00]

Hello,

Thanks Bruce for opening up. Here are some general
questions do your best to answer them please. How do
you keep hi-resolution in your recording? How would a
J-Station effect the resolution? I mean how would you
keep it hi-res, recording in the 16 bit realm. Pointers
please

Thank you all for your input Epi

[kristian]

http://www.digido.com/ditheressay.html this will probably take 30 minutes to read. but it has tons of detailed information in non technical terms. Its really good for understanding what you are doing when recording or processing in the digital world.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally posted by Epi Paul '00
How do you keep hi-resolution in your recording? How would a J-Station effect the resolution? I mean how would you keep it hi-res, recording in the 16 bit realm.

Once something is recorded via the A/D converters at say 24-bit/44khz, stay there until mastering time....

And I don't understand your second question... if you send a signal from your J-Station into your computer, it is getting converted to digital (by the A/D converters) and the resolution is dictated by your word size and sample rate. If you choose to record at say 24/44.1khz, then you are using a hi-res wordsize (the highest res currently would be 24-bit/96khz).

If you don't move the audio back to the analog world and then back into digital, you would be maintaining the resolution right thru your mixing phase.... when it comes to creating your CD, you then dither down the hi-res audio down to CD-quality (which is 16-bit/44.1khz).

Bruce

[Epi Paul '00]

Bruce

I'm recording onto a Fostex VF08 which is 16bit, 44.1khz.
How do I keep the recording as hi-res as I can? Like what
kind of effects should I use? Would the J-Station hurt me
or help me? I need effects, do effects hinder your resolution?
How do I keep the processing as pure as possible at 16 or
close to that. I hope that explains myself better. If it doesn't
I'll write some more. Thanks Epi

[Blue Bear Sound]

If you are only recording to one unit at 16/44 then you'll be staying at 16/44 until you mix down....

Given the gear you're talking about, there's nothing you can do to change from 16/44 to the hi-resolutions (20 or 24-bit and 48/88/96 sampling rates)

Bruce

[Epi Paul '00]

Thank you Bruce you've been more than helpful.
And thank you Kristian that site was very informative.


Epi

[vulcanofga]

Epi,

If you are recording at 16 bit,make extra sure you record as close to 0db as possible without clipping.Many people with 24bit are not even getting the 16bit word length because there level is too low.

Also the J-station is a digital modeling device that has a 24 bit 44.1k rate.You can't use the digital out to go to your 16bit but the analoug out should give you a good signal if it's recorded "hot enough."

[Vurt]

Bruce, if I understand you correctly, my concerns over trackin at 20-bit only to mix down through a 16-bit soundcard are unfounded, no?

Until I read this thread, I thought I would be losing substantial quality and have been considering a better soundcard. But, if I'm doing all of my processing etc at 20-bit, the drop-off at mixdown shouldn't be so bad.... if I understand what you were saying.

I haven't done any mixdowns with said configuration b/c the friggin adat has been gone for 2 weeks getting cleaned, so I haven't been able to use my own ears yet.

[vulcanofga]

I think another concearn with starting at 16bit,is if you do alot of D/A and back to A/D in a mix down that you use loose clarity and it becomes "gritty."If you can keep it in the digital realm through the whole process it would be a lot better.

[Gidge]

Vurt, if you mixdown to 16 bit and dont do any processing AT ALL while at 16 bit, there shouldnt be any quality issues involved.....now if you are having to go through a D/A and A/D conversion with the 16 bit card, the quality of the converters on the card will come into play......if its a straight digital dump, you are ok.....

[Vurt]

Well, I go from adat/mixer into a SB Live card via the rca ins, so I'm assuming the card's converters are involved. I'm still unclear on what spdif and optical jacks can be used for, but I have a feeling I should be using them somehow. Any suggestions?

Once mixed down, I use wavelab for basic editing, and that's about it.

[Gidge]

S/PDIF and optical jacks are tools for transferring tracks digitally, skipping the D/A and A/D conversions...since the SB is not that greatof a card, you are losing some quality....also,as mentioned, any processing done once in the computer takes away some of the quality.....

is any of this an issue?...only if you arent happy with your sound......if you get a card that will transfer digitally and is 24 bit, you can actually mixdown to 24 bit......if the ADAT has S/PDIF then you can get a 24 bit card for as little as $89 that solves both the A/D and D/A problem and the 16 bit problem.....

[Vurt]

Hmm. No SPDIF on the LX20, (damn!) but it does have the optical interface, as does the SB Live. Since I don't want to mix on pc, it seems I'll just have to let my ears judge whether or not I should get a new card or continue using the SB. The outcome of next week's trip to vegas may be a factor in what my ears decide to tell me.

thanks for the help, Gidge...

[vulcanofga]

The outcome of next weeks trip to Vegas.......

Vurt, Always hit a 16 never hit a 17.Or is it never hit a 16......?
Anyway good luck in Vegas.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Gidge is bang-on -- nothing more for me to add!

Bruce