Monitoring Woes

[Jason James]

Hey There Guys, I, like most of the people on this forum am having monitor problems. I have started a small project studio out of my home based on a Roland VSR-880 (rack mounted 8 track recorder with FX etc built in), a Behringer board and a few out board pieces. I've been getting great sounds however when I "master" to cd the mix sounded pretty good on all stereos but not the best (using an old Kenwood reciver/amp and $15 pawnshop Sony speakers that actually sound pretty good). So, I went out and bought a pair of powerd studio monitors (Event PS5's). The sound difference between the two sets of speakers is obviously quite different. I can make the mix sound really good on the Event's, but when I mix down and listen in the real world its sounds hollow with too much low end. When I mix on the cheap speakers it actually sounds better in the real world. What do you guys think I need to do? I'd like to be able to mix on the monitors, make the mix sound great, then have that transfer to other stereo's, for the most part, acuratly. Is it the Event's? Should I try a different type of monitor, (I can take these back). What would you suggest for around $500-$600. How about the Behringer Truth Monitors ( pwr'd now at $399 a pair.) How about an Alesis amp and the Event 20/20's. Also, I'm mixing in a mediumsized walk-in closet. This could be a problem, however, I'd think it would make me mix with too little bass, the opposite is happening. Just to let you know, when playing back production CD's (pearl jam, u2 etc.) on the the Events the music sounds very bright without much low end. Any answers would be of great help.

Thanks,
Jason

ps. I put mastering in quotes because I've always been told that out of house mastering makes a huge difference, especially compared to the mastering program in the VSR-880. For our final product we're heading ot Jerry Tubb to have him do the Mastering.

[barefoot]

Don't use Pearl Jam as a reference man! I'm not very familiar with their other discs, but the production on Ten sounds like the shits the day after cheep Mexican food.

Seriously though, it looks like the acoustics in that walk-in closet might your biggest problem. Are there clothes hanging in there too?

barefoot

[mikemoritz]

when you say "not much low end" in the CDs (U2 etc.) you play on them, are you compensating for your mix by making the Events sound like full on Aiwa stereo speakers (lots of bass and suckin out the mids)? The Events, as far as I know, weren't made to sound like that. I'm coming from a different ballpark though. I'm running with NS10's. Now I could make a mix that sounds kicking and bassy through them, but I would know that it would sound like absolute shit through anything else. It's all about learning what the monitors are doing with the sound and then compensating for it. It's not about making your monitors sound like aiwas and then praying to god it'll sound like that everywhere. They're not magic little speakers. the reason your "cheapy" speakers are sounding better on other things is probably cause they are more bass heavy than the events. Thusly, you're adding less bass to make them sound good to your ears. With the events, you're trying to make them sound "kickin", and wind up with too much bass.

At least I think this is what's happening.

Sorry for the ramble on,
Mike

[Jason James]

First off, no, there arn't any clothes in the closet. Just the mixer rack, some shelves with the monitors, VSR-880 and CD burner etc. That's all against the wall, facing the door, which puts me with my back facing the door to my right. Carpet on the floor, blown acoustic ceiling. Any suggestions?

Secondly, your right, Peal Jam 10 is probably not the best soundng CD but just one that was there that I was familiar to. As far as mixing (again I'm pretty new at this) I would think if you had nice monitors you wouldn't have to second guess your mixes. I.E. mix with less bass than you prefer, knowing that it's going to more bass heavy in the real world. Perhaps I'm wrong on this. Am I wrong in thinking that if you have good monitors and you get your mix sounding great on them, that the mix will sound great in most other stereos, jamboxes, headphones etc. Still confused and wondering if I should keep the Event PS5's or upgrade. Here's some other options I've looked at, what do you think?

Behringer Truth Monitors $399
EVENT PS8s $649
Alesis M1MkII Actives $500
EVENT 20/20's with say an Alesis Ra150 $500
Tanoy Reveals " " $520
Monitor Ones Mk2 " " $450

At the very high end of what I can afford the Tanoy Reveal Actives at $700.

Thanks for the help and sorry for the long winded-ness.....

Jason

[1 1 Meta 2 2 2]

i've delayed the monitors purchase until i can get at least the mackie hr824 (i think that's the model). my 0.02 is do yourself a beautiful favor and wait until you can get some really nice monitors.

best wishes and happy recording,
jeff

[MISTERQCUE]

If you are experiencing to much bass, try incorporating a 75 hz
cutoff switch and keep ALL of your EQ's in the FLAT Position!
Record some bass, rhythm and drum tracks and try repositioning your monitors to get the flattest sound as you can.
If the rear of your monitors are facing a wall, sub-bass frequencies will mix in with the monitors bass speaker and give the impression that the bass sounds goodBut when played in other formats it will sound muddy and over-loaded. In this case, diffuse the port holes in the back of the monitors with a small amount of absorbant material,or deaden the walls that faces the back of the monitors to achieve close to accurate bass monitoring.

[Jason James]

The PS5's have one port in the front. The backs are facing the corners of the room at an angle. I'll try some repositioning and see what happens. I was even considering moving from the walking closet that I'm now in to another room and seeing how that goes, I'd prefer not to do this though.

Thanks again, and thanks to any future replys.

[atomictoyz]

I just realized something, A studio buys and uses nearfield monitors costing an average of lets says $800 a pair. He then sends his pre-mastered stereo mix to a mastering house. The Mastering Engineer then does what he can to the mix through multiple types of Monitors (not nearfields) each one costing around $3000 to $8000 a piece, Ive seen then upwards of $20,000 each....Just to dither is all back down to a 16bit, 44.1Khz CD for the consumer who inturn puts it into $250.00 all in one JVC desktop stereo system with speakers that cost about $20. The moral of the story is nearfields may not be the best vehicle for listening to a CD as a reference. A person might take a mix done on CD in his studio and compare that to a CD in a home stereo. This way you can see if your heading in the same direction. Another thing before I forget, if youve been listening to something cheap for along time, then the new, better sound, will sound foreign (worse is the typical term)to your tainted ears. Monitors which are nearfield are designed for a flat response in a recording environment, home speakers are designed for dynamics and open rooms with dynamics. Listen to post mixed things through home stereo speakers outside of the studio. Does this make sense or have I lost my point somewhere?


Peace,
Dennis

[Gargamel]

You should create several mixes and test them out on many different speaker combinations: Car stereo, home stereo, boom box, walk man, studio monitors....etc


Don't just listen. jot down some of your thoughts while listening to your mixes.

ex:

Car Stereo: muddy lows, good mids

Home stereo: Good Lows, Hollow midrange

etc.....


Then go back after you rest your ears for a day or so and do another mix while keeping your notes in front of you. I really think ear fatigue is overlooked by many of us. Ear fatigue will cause you to boost and cut all ofthe wrong frequencies......

[MISTERQCUE]

Originally posted by Gargamel


Don't just listen. jot down some of your thoughts while listening to your mixes.

......

Most EXCELLENT advice there Gargamel!! ALWAY's keep notes,track sheets etc so you can accurately track your recordings
noting freq'y's incorporated, trim/gain levels,signal processing,etc
while also denoting what sounded good & bad on other musical
formats! This way you can keep a "TRACK DIARY" of your mixes!

Good Luck!

[sjoko2]

A small space like that - your bass will be severely screwed-up. Reason is that very likely the room size is smaller than the size of a low frequency wave.

So the first and foremost thing you will need to do is to put a little trapping in your space. You can either build something, or, as its a small space, you can buy some foam cutting wedges, which will most likely do the job perfectly. I'd also use some absorbent material against the walls if I was you.

Regarding monitors, I know I keep repeating myself, but in your case, with a small space, I really do not think you could get anything better than the JBL LSR25P's

[vox]

I got the JBLs on Sjoko's recommendation and believe me he is right, most monitor boxes are made of wood or fibreboard and the whole box tends to resonate and put out bass in all directions, the JBL boxes are solid aluminium, they weigh a ton and hardly vibrate at all at normal monitoring levels, the result is a very tight clear and focussed bass sound

[sjoko2]

vox, question for you .... many people look at the specs of the LSR25's and think they lack low end. Do you think they do?

[Jason James]

Thanks guys for the input. It looks like the monitors I have arn't the problem but the room and the user. It still seems like if you had good monitors, once the mix was nailed it would sound good on all systems. However, the general concenses is that you have to learn you monitors and adjust the mix acordingly, second guessing your self in a way. As far as room treatments, any one know where I can get more info on this. I'm pretty lost when it comes to treating the walk-in closet to correct the low end. Thanks for the help.

[sjoko2]

http://www.acousticfoam.com/afoams-whisperwedge.html

foam is not my fav, but for a cupboard - there you go

[vox]

Originally posted by sjoko2
vox, question for you .... many people look at the specs of the LSR25's and think they lack low end. Do you think they do?

Well yes and no
They don't give you a huge room filling bass sound and my first impression was that they were bass shy, but I find that I can hear and judge bass frequencies down to 40 or 50 Hz pretty easily, suprisingly so actually, and the low end of my mixes has been translating a WHOLE LOT better than with my previous monitors.
Thanks for recommending them.

[sjoko2]

exactly what I hoped you would say (which also means you CAN actually listen correctly)

This is what a good monitor allows for - Judging what you are doing accurately. Surpirising the number of people that do not understand that that is the key to a good monitoring system, and not (neccissarily - nice if it does but that comes at a cost) audiophile quality.

[barefoot]

sjoko,

I'm in about 33.3% agreement with you (pretty good for us).

One can certainly learn to compensate for monitors with mild spectral balance imperfections as long as the monitors have a stable, predicable response (like the LSR25's). But, do you distinguish coloration issues from resolution issues? I do. I agree that you don't need 'hi-fi' quality to achieve accurate spectral balance, but finer dynamic, transient, and spatial details are not so easy.

I find it useful to think of monitoring a recording as being analogous to painting a picture while wearing sun glasses. A perfect monitoring system would be like sunglasses with lenses completely removed. The deficiencies of a monitoring system can then be put into three basic analogous categories:

1. Color Tint - This is like having a non-flat frequency response. If the lens tinting is not too severe a good painter can learn in time to compensate for this spectral unbalance so that when she takes the glasses off the colors look right.

2. Shading - The is analogous to dynamic compression. The painter can turn up the lights in her studio, but the shaded lenses will always reduce the contrast (dynamic range) she sees. Experience and training can help by improving her sensitivity to slight variations in contrast (dynamic resolution), but there is a point where physics and biology prevent her from learning to compensate any better for this handicap. She's never going to be able to accurately control the low level contrast subtleties in her paintings.

3. Scratches and Smudges - This is akin to the various sorts of distortion in a monitoring system. Scratched and smudged lenses add false images to the painters field of view while reducing both the contrast (dynamic) and spatial (frequency) resolution of the painting she trying to see. There is very little she can do to compensate for this handicap. She should stick to a larger, blocky painting style because she's never going to be able to paint fine details accurately.

Notice the order I put them in. The problems decrease in severity but increase in difficulty to overcome. Deficiencies in a monitoring system which lead to spectral imbalance in recordings are the most offensive problems, but the easiest to fix or "learn" past. Limited dynamic range in monitors is less bothersome, and with practice one can improve their ears dynamic sensitivity a little to compensate for this. But the very lower limit of dynamic resolution for humans is about 0.2 dB and there is nothing right now we can do about that. Distortion in a monitoring system further reduces dynamic range and limits ones ability to hear fine spatial, timbral and transient subtleties. I don't think this causes anyone to produce BAD recordings, but it does limit thier ability produce extremely deep, rich and detailed recordings. [BTW, at normal volumes most monitors produce about 1% THD in the mid and high frequencies and upwards of 5% THD in the bass]

If you're only worried about how your music eventually sounds on the radio playing through a $50 boom box, then forget the two "resolution" issues and just work out your monitoring coloration problems. Buy some cheap monitors with flat response, tweak your room a bit, learn to "translate", and you'll be fine. If however, you really want to clearly hear EVERYTHING going on in your music, then look for monitors which also have wide dynamic range and low distortion. But just like how these problems are difficult to solve with our ears, they are also very difficult to solve in loudspeakers, so truly linear monitors don't come cheep.

barefoot

[Jason James]

Lot's of info., but it looks like we got off on a side note. I'm still wondering if it's possible to monitor in a medium sized walk in closet. If so what type of treatments should I do to the room? Also, I'm wondering if there are other monitor systems in my price range that would work better for what I'm trying to achieve. (See above for further monitor options in my $ range.) I've been doing my first real mixes today. I can get the music sounding great thru the monitors but it sounds bad in the real world. When i play a reference CD (Ben Harper, Counting Crows, Etc.) and try to match my mix to those CD's, my mix sounds pretty good in the real world but bright, mid-y, and bassless on the monitors. (the reference CD's sound this way thru the monitors). If all the monitors in my $ range are going to be this way, me haveing to second guess my mixes, then I'll just learn to adapt to these. If there are monitors out there that I can make the music smoke on and it will sound great in the real world then let me at 'em. Any thoughts?????

Jason

[sjoko2]

yes - like we said LSR25P's

What is the size of your cupboard? And what is on the walls?

[Jason James]

The walk-in closet in 4'4"x4'4"x8'high. The walls are sheetrock, the ceiling is blown acoustic.

SEE ALSO ATTACHED PIC

The monitors are on home made supports (from the floor) that hold two shelves with the VSR-880, CD Burner, Tape deck etc. The Event PS5's are on their side (tweeters out) and are actually supporting the weight of the second shelf. There's a picture attached (sorry it's messy), perhaps that will help some. It's shot thru the door into the "closet control." I'm considering "coming out of the closet" and moving into another bed room. It's just real easy to work out of the closet since most of the recoding I do is by my self.

I'll take a listen to the JBLs. I'm also considering the Passive Reveals and gettting an Alesis RA150. All 3 systems are in the same price range.

Also, about what I was saying earlier, just getting used to the monitors and learning to mix on them. Do you think that's true, or should any of the aforementioned monitors in a decent room give accurate results that translate into the real world.

Thanks so much for the help.

Jason

[sjoko2]

First the closet

Whereas you can design a larger space to be acoustically correct for its purpose, you have no such luxury with a very small place. Therefore, there is only one thing you can do, which is to make it as "dead" as possible. In other words - get foam and start glueing.

The monitors. The reason I recommended the LSr's is one very simple one, they are many times better than any comparable product in their pricerange. You would find none of the other monitors you mentioned in high end studios, where as you will find more and more 25's in exactly such places, as well as in many post and surround facilities. Also, the different set-up configurations (switches in the rear) have some settings which make them ideal for a small space.

[barefoot]

Jason,

Another big problem I see you have are reflecting surfaces and diffracting edges very close to your monitors.

These secondary wave fronts (see pic) will interfere with the direct signal and cause response peaks and dips. The closer things like this are to your monitors, the higher the amplitude of the reflections and diffractions, and greater the response anomalies.

Try too pull your monitors out in front of the gear and shelving.

barefoot

[Jason James]

Bare foot, How'd you know what I look like? Just kidding, great recommendation. I put the monitors as far a way as possible thinking, it would allow the low end to develop more. I'll move the monitors closer and see what happens, also, I'll put foam ect on walls behind and to the side of me. Would carpet work, or is studio foam better? I have carpet hanging in the room where I track and it seems to help with reflections.

Thanks for the info.

Jason

[barefoot]

Jason,

If you're interested, I just posted a thread explaining a bit about that reflection and diffraction stuff.
http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthr...threadid=36381

barefoot