Final Compression?

[entenow]

hi

today i visited my friend who works at a local radio station and i
saw what they use to make music LOUD. they have 60 compressors in a row.
now im wondering how those compressors are adjusted.
and how much compression is advisable for mastering on lets say normal pop/rock music, not classic.
on some of my mixes i used 3 times of slight compression but i never thought of such big numbers. hmm.
does anyone of you know what compression is on "professional" productions?

entenow

[thornapple]

Hey Ent.
Here's something to remeber. A one sentence definition of a compressor: It reduces the dynamic range of a given signal flow. My point is if all you want to be is loud then use as many as you can!! This is somewhat a touchy area for a lot of engineers. The current trend is to squash the hell out of it and make it as loud as possible on that cd. The down side of this is you loose a lot of musical and artistic expression. It's subjective just be musical. I have had some product ruined because the mastering engineer had to play with every toy he owned. Not because it was musical, because he had one of those toys with the cool lights.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally posted by thornapple
I have had some product ruined because the mastering engineer had to play with every toy he owned. Not because it was musical, because he had one of those toys with the cool lights.

I hope you didn't go back to them -- that is not a sign of a professional mastering facility -- sounds more like rookies.

The pro mastering places I've dealt with are all vehemently against the current "pin the meters and make them stay there" trend. Also... no pro worth his salt will insert gratuitous processing in the chain simply for the sake of adding gear! The pro will listen first to see what's needed, before even reaching for the insert rack......

Bruce

[entenow]

well,
of course i agree with you, apple. I think todays music you listen to on most of our radio stations and tv is simply annoying, i cannot listen to it more than half an hour. in addition I hate most of today's music. i'm nineteen!! and alot of my friends even the younger ones feel the same.
(i think the majors have to think about their politics or otherwise they will suffer from the results in some years. but that's not part of the topic.)

it was just a question of interest. (i like philosophy )
i just wanna know how this pop-producing biz works.

so, you wanna say that the "pros" don't need any (or only a little bit) compression because tracks are already recorded properly?


hey, good news! right place to ask!!!
an hour ago my friend told me that we could get his band on another small, alternative radio station. so should i apply more compression? how should the dynamic range of a radio edit look like?

entenow

[atomictoyz]

The reason radio and tv stations compress the snot out of everything is because they have to pump it out using alot of energy to get it to your radio, just look at the frequency radio stations operate at and figure how controlled the dynamics have to be to make sure all of the song gets there somewhat
together. There is also a trend right now to make "loud" CD's, its only a trend so just hang on with the tried and true and youll be fine. BBS is right, most renown mastering engineers look at mastering as
"seasoning food", you only do it when it will make it better, you can ruin it if you feel that you have to use every spice in the "rack", I think thats what Doug Sax said once, not a quote but a reference.

Ok Blue Bear, what criteria should be used for determining "Pro Mastering Engineer" verses a "Rookie Mastering Engineer"?

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally posted by atomictoyz
Ok Blue Bear, what criteria should be used for determining "Pro Mastering Engineer" verses a "Rookie Mastering Engineer"?

I thought I already said it... the Pro will use their ears first before even reaching for any gear.... then their experience and craftmanship will dictate any gear to pull in....

What a Pro will NOT do is gratuitiously throw effects into the path just 'cos of the pretty flashing lights.

Bruce

[Seanmorse79]

I wouldn't ruin your recording by over-compressing it -the radio station will do that on its own regardless. Keep the dynamics and integrity of your recording intact, so it still sounds true on a CD.

[atomictoyz]

Originally posted by Blue Bear Sound
" their experience and craftmanship will dictate"

You thought it Bruce, but it never showed up actually, thanks for adding what I knew you were thinking in the first place :0). If I had a nickle for each time Sonusman and Blue Bear have stressed having "experience" in the formula for getting great results I would probably own Masterdisk! Educate yourself on the processes, research the available resources, get a free sample disk from the Mastering folks to
see if you like what they have done before you buy, and last but not least, check their references and Company history if they are "Professsionals". In the old days Mastering Engineers were mentored and those who did well got referred, and those who weren't good, they went back to mixing :0)...


Peace,
Dennis

[Sonic Misfit]

In replay to entenow's original question. "How are the compressors adjusted?"

Please realize that this is based on rather dated experience, but I doubt that things have changed so much.

When a radio station uses a bank of compressors, there are a lot of things to take into consideration. First is that half of the compressors are probably not even on line. They may be waiting for one of the others to fail. So then why do they need 30 compressors?

If the compressors are single channel then you will need two for stereo. So then why do they need 15 compressor pairs?

They probably have one pair per CD channel. Which in a small station would take care of 4 pairs. At least 4 more pairs are assigned to incoming phone lines which allow for network broadcasts. There will be one pair for each tape deck and one pair for each turntable. Then one pair will be assigned to the final signal that passes to the transmitter.

The settings on each compressor is different depending on its source. For example the compression on the CDs would probably be higher than on the turntables. However, the gain on the turntables would be higher than on the CDs. Or vice versa depending on the equipment.

Anyway, the comment earlier is correct in that the station pumps a lot of energy to deliver the music. The compression is done not just to make the music LOUD, but because the receivers are so varied and the station wants to have a consistent sound. This is similar to listening to a mix on near field monitors and then making a copy to listen to on a car stereo. If is sounds good on the car stereo then it is a good mix, but if it sounds good on the studio monitors and bad on the car stereo then there is a problem.

Now that I remember back on my radio days, I wish I could get hold of the old tube compressors that we had.

[sjoko2]

Very accurate Sonic - also many stations send programming further down the line.

As far as mastering is concerned, the less gear you use to reach the objectives, the better!

[clubzero]

Blue Bear I checked your studio. It seems like a good idea to record there.. I just wish it weren't on the other side ot the globe..

Club Zero

[Blue Bear Sound]

Heh-heh... thanks Club! But yeah... I can see where it may not be cost effective for ya!!

[sjoko2]

There's only one thing left for you to do zero .......... MOVE!!

[clubzero]

Lol

Club Zero

[josesequeira]

What´s the average RMS level to audio tracks?

[MarkST]

Hi guys,

While we're on this subject, does anyone know what MTV and VH1 are doing to the sound? (apart from ruining it?) It doesn't seem to be straightforward compression (that would be an improvement). Instead the sound seems to change level at random - is it to stop people recording off the TV? Any ideas?

Mark

[Blue Bear Sound]

Along the same lines... what's up with promo sound (adverts, promo spots, etc..)??? More and more lately, I've heard some really bad-sounding spots... phase problems, truly horrible stereo imaging, bad balancing...

Bruce