here to bring 'misery'

[maryslittlesecret]

Howdy, all. I'm looking for your suggestions and thoughts on our latest tune called "My Misery", which is available out at http://www.mp3.com/30SoS

I took your suggestions from our last post ("Relativity") and tried to adjust the vocals to be less ‘tinny'. As always, I'm interested to get your opinions. Please take a listen and let us know what you think -- particularly about the vocal production, but we'd also love any thoughts or suggestions on the mix, production, performance, song, etc.

Thanks again and we look forward to hearing from you.

J
http://www.mp3.com/30SoS/
http://www.30SoS.com

[CyanJaguar]

man, I am hearing some tight mixes on homerecording bbs nowadays.

this mix can be listened to by most anybody with no questions asked. It would be taken for granted that its a pro mix.

THe bass rocks It covered up the kick a bit but it rocks.

At my normal listening levels, the only thing that sounded less than pro was the vox. IT sounded a bit thin and too far away .I thought MAn, you need a shure sm58 or a solidtube or very close micing. Raising the listeining level brought the vox surprisingly to the foreground even though I would still eq some more body into it.

Hey man, I like this song. I would totally listen to it on a CD.
good job.

[schenkerguy]

Great! I like the drum sound! Is it someone playing pads? Doesn't sound quite like acoustic drums, but timing is very human. Also a really good bass sound.

To me, the vocals have a bit too much compression... it's like they don't have much dynamic range, and the louder the vocalist sings the quieter they get. Like a bit too high a compression ratio. Just my opinion, they sound almost perfect. I probably would have mixed them a bit louder. Maybe they need one of those kind of 3d-ish short delay effects that kind of make them jump out a bit, and spread it a bit wider in the stereo field.

Just my thoughts... sounds good though!

- GT

[Buck62]

Killer tune, dude!

Of course, that doesn't surprise me. All your stuff is creative and well performed.... "My Misery" is no exception.

I really don't have any complaints about the mix, except that I would bring up the volume of the slow-picked guitar during the break part just a bit. Maybe a bit more volume on the vocals, too.

That first off-beat roll on the drums doesn't seem as smooth as the others in the song... or maybe it's just me, I don't know.

"My Misery" is a great listen, though. My opinions are subjective, of course, but this seems to be close to being "radio ready".... save for just a bit of mastering.

I'm curious as to if and/or when you guys play "live".
More specifically, I was wondering if you'll be hitting Chicago anytime soon. I'd love to see you guys do this stuff live.

Keep up the great work!

Buck

[maryslittlesecret]

Thanks for the input, everyone. I really appreciate the comments as I'm trying to work out our vocal issues...

Cyan -- we're really glad you think it's a CD quality mix... that's very flattering. In terms of the vox, I actually did use a 58 this time. I also cut some high end when I added the effects. I'm just having a hard time getting the tight, warm sound I'm after... Any suggestions, compression setting (fro recording or mixing), etc.?

schenkerguy -- thanks for listening. I think this is the first time you've comment on my stuff, so I appreciate your input. The drums are actually a drum machine (BOSS DR660 -- love it!). Since we'd rather have real drums but don't have the gear for recording a kit, we take a lot of time programming and dialing in the drum machine. Again, I haven't been able to get what I want out of my vocal preamp/compressor, but I think it's more for lack of knowledge in setting it than it is bad gear (it's a dbx 286A and a 58 for the mic). I just can't find a way to smooth out the vocal performance (which varies quite a bit) while keeping a good tone...

Buck62 -- good to hear from you again and thanks for the great comments! we'll be giggin and trying to get into Chicago as soon as we can get a few more of these tunes down and fix the our vocal problems... I feel like I have no real control over the vox, so with that and not getting the sound I'm after, I think I tend to mix certain areas under. In terms of the drums, I think it's probably the same programmed pattern that goes throughout the song, but I'll have to take another listen. And I can see where you're coming from on the slow-picked guitar...

Overall, I NEED VOCAL HELP! I really feel like I don't know how to work the gear I have. Somebody please start me from scratch and walk me through recording a dynamic (from whisper to shout) vocal performance... Do I compress as I record? If so, how much? Do I crank up the gain and turn down the output on my preamp? Do I do the opposite? How about record in levels on my soundcard and software? Any suggestions are welcome... Thanks and keep the thoughts and suggestions coming!

J
http://www.mp3.com/30SoS

[theron]

Dude, kicking song! I dug on the chorus lyrics. It had a nice dynamic to the arrangment as well.
I'm no techno wiz when it comes to tracking so, I can't help much on the vocal recording baby steps.
I would say fool with your mic technic for the whisper to scream thing. Are you recording the vox in a sound booth? Have you tried cutting the vocals in different rooms and such?

Just some thoughts, the tracking sound very solid. I would do a more liberal pan with some parts but, what do I know. The vocals sound good but, I understand when you are going for a specific intimacy and will not be happy till you get there.
Good luck.

Theron

[drstawl]

The vocal rocked! I wouldn't be worried about that part of it just yet. Maybe a pinch of reverb mixed with some delay.

The overall low end needs some boost, but not in an EQ sort of fashion. You need another voice down there that has some more percussive ADSR envelope that you can boost without muddying up the whole low end.

The tune and its arrangement (and the vibe, BTW) was on the level of that big hit. "Harden My Heart".

Nice job!

[maryslittlesecret]

Thanks for the comments, guys.

Theron -- glad you dug the tune and lyrics. this was an old one that almost got scrapped... I think the room I'm in may be part of the problem -- fairly small, but hardwood floor with an area rug and no curtain or drapes on the windows, so it's pretty live.

drstawl -- thanks for the input. i've actually got some verb and delay in there, but I agree I could've rasied the fx level. in terms of the other vocal, I assume you mean another vocal track an octave lower or something like that. I did that technique on our tune "job's song" if you're interested (same web address). You lost me on ASDR(?) and the 'Harden My Heart' reference (tom petty?) -- sorry, I can be a little slow...

I plan to spend some quality time this weekend with my mic and preamp -- any suggestions on tracking vocals, preamp/compressor settings, etc. would be much appreciated. Share the wisdom, gang!

J
http://www.mp3.com/30SoS

[drstawl]

Not necessarily a vocal track- just another track in that frequency range. Hint: Bass AND Drums!

ADSR = Attack Decay Sustain Release

Attack: how fast the waveform rises at the start from zero.

Decay: how fast it 'decays' to the sustain level.

Sustain: a hold function. How long this lasts.

Release: The fade-out of a waveform. How long THIS lasts.

My brain cells just disgorged another factoid that wasn't available at press time. Harden My Heart by QUARTER FLASH. Whew.

[CyanJaguar]

hi,

can you share what kind of eq you have on the vox?

Also, how far are you micing? I've noticed that the shure can get really big when you are on top of it, but it loses proximity effect quickly when you move back

[maryslittlesecret]

Thanks for the clarification, drstawl. Though we're pretty happy with the drum and bass lines, it would be cool to have like a synth bass part kind of flowing along the bottom... And I'm not sure where you got QuarterFlash out of that tune, but I'll take it as a compliment (I think)...

And Cyan, you'll probably laugh, but I don't EQ the vocals (or anything else) at all. I clipped a little of the high end off the vox on "Misery" when I added the effects since the vox were kind of crispy on our last tune. But for all practical purposes, I don't know jack about EQ, compression, or effects in general and so I avoid it as much as possible. My idea of mixing is mainly moving the level sliders (I know -- I'm a fraud!)

That's why I'm wrestling with these vox so much. If I can't get a good sound when I'm tracking, I'm pretty much lost. Feel free to drop some EQ hints my way, as well as any other tips to get that tight, crisp (yet warm) vocal sound -- other than hiring a new singer... Thanks and everyone else feel free to chime in with your two cents.

J
http://www.mp3.com/30SoS

[Meshuggah]

This is very good.. I love the drum-fx.. tho the snare is not my taste, but that's just me. Vocals sound a bit thin.. I think you need a Large Dia Condenser.. or maybe just sing closer to the SM58...

Very good song/recording. Cudos!

[dobro]

Secret, all you do is post in this forum. Give you credit for doing it again and again.

Never saw you post in any other forum or in response to any other mp3 posted in this forum.

Ante up. Don't care how good your music is.

I might even listen to one of your tunes if you join in. (insert big grin here, don't even care if you aren't grinning too)

[maryslittlesecret]

Thanks for the input, Meshuggah. The snare isn't really our taste either but it's as good as we can muster from the drum machine we have. And I actually switched back to a 58 from a C3000 trying to warm up the vocals, but I'm discovering the problem must be elsewhere (perhaps the user).

And dobro, I apologize that I have more questions than answers. I do post (mainly questions) in other forums and occasionally even respond to posts in here, but more often than not, I don't feel like I can offer any input to improve what I hear. When I do feel that I have some legitimate, helpful advice, I post it.

I'll make you a deal -- if you can can hear something in any of our songs that you feel we're doing significantly better than you (or anyone else), I will post a detailed desciption of my equipment, techniques, etc. on the thread of your choice. Otherwise, I try to live by the old (roughly paraphrased) saying: 'better to sit silently and let people think you're a fool than to open your mouth and prove them right'

J
http://www.mp3.com/30SoS

[dobro]

The sound on this one does exactly what it's supposed to do - it's big and delicious. I have no idea how you make the guitar and bass so big while keeping the vocal so clear. A real accomplishment. The instruments seem to have a soft envelope around their sound that enables you to crank up the gain without hurting the ears. Good work. How many tubes did you run it through?

The band on this one does exactly what it's supposed to do - tight playing.

The music on this one does exactly what it's supposed to do - that kinda instrumental *** spoken-word bit from 2.05 puts the hair up on the back of my neck.

I guess I'm gonna have to forgive the swagger of the lyrics, then.

Really, really good. You had the 'rocks' knob turned way up on this one.

[maryslittlesecret]

Thanks for the listen, dobro. We really appreciate it. I'll share what I can about our recordings for you or anyone else who's interested...

Both the guitar and bass are recorded direct through a POD 2.0. We have no micing tricks (or skills, for that matter). Just spent some time dialing in tones we liked and felt were complimentary to each other. In addition, each guitar (other than in the bridge) is at least tripled -- one down the middle and one panned hard to each side, all slightly different tones to add depth. Though I'm sure you'll all laugh (or scowl), I do not own a single piece of tube gear, though I may be gunning for a tube mic preamp in the near future...

Vocals, though I really don't feel like we have anything to offer on this, were done with a 58 through a dbx 286A. For effects, I run to my outboard ART DR-X 2000. I have a patch that is verb, compression, and delay (which I change from song to song to match the tempo). I also added EQ to that patch this time to try and tame the high-end issues in the vox for our last song "Relativity". Thanks to the board for bringing that up in the last post and offering up some solid advice.

Performance-wise, the band (at this point) is just myself and our drummer (though there are no live drums on any of our stuff). I do guitars, vocals, and keys and together we do all the drum programming, sequencing, loops, etc. I'm glad it sounds like a tight performance, but I get a kick out of calling it a performance at all since it's 100% overdubs...

The mid section vocals, ironically enough, were also recorded through the POD to get a warmer overdriven sound I couldn't get with our plugins... Glad they had the desired effect with you. And the lyrics do swagger a little more than I'd like, but this tune is about five years old, back when it was still cool...

Thanks again for the comments. Though you seem to think the vocal production fits the song, do you (or anyone here) have any suggestions for a tighter, warmer vocal sound -- without going on a gear binge?

J
http://www.mp3.com/30SoS

[dobro]

You're like Emeric - you get excellent sound with modest resources.

You're asking if anyone can suggest improvements, but take a look at two approaches here:

1 Tweaking improvements out of your present gear and techniques.

2 Buying some better gear.

Which one do you think would produce the more significant improvement in the sound?

[brokenwindow]

Rockin tune.....as always.

A little different than your other tunes..I like it.

Nothing to say that hasn't been said already.

Keep pumping out the awesome tunes.

[maryslittlesecret]

Thanks for the subtle hint, dobro Any suggestions on a better (yet affordable) mic or preamp that would make a significant impact on vocal warmth/production? I have a AKG C3000 I can go back to if that would warm up with a better preamp...

And brokenwindow, thanks for the post. No advice or gear suggestions for the vox? How about a different band comparison to get QuarterFlash out of my head... just kidding, drstawl

Thanks again, everyone. I'm already making some adjustments with the next tune were working on...

J
http://www.mp3.com/30SoS

[warlock]

I haven't tried it myself, but what about trying the mic modeler?
Recording with the C3000 and then running it throught the modeler?
Someone I know did it to a NT1 and it sounded much better.

Keijo

[warlock]

I haven't tried it myself, but what about trying the mic modeler?
Recording with the C3000 and then running it throught the modeler?
Someone I know did it to a NT1 and it sounded much better.

Keijo

[charger]

You know I think your stuff rocks. I'm not as sold on this song as I am on the 4 previous.

Things I do like:

1) the crispy sound you get on your high guitar chords. I have tried everything on my pod, and have determined that it must have something to do with your particular guitar, because none of my 5 guitars get that sound.
2) the bridge. I think this is the first time I've heard you play clean guitar. Also, you used a lot less of the techno instrumentation... it came out seeming very tasteful.
3) I always like your vocals. I don't think fighting the "thin" charactor of your vocals is a good idea, especially when you consider how well they fit with the other frequencies in the song. However, I would suggest, as I always do, singing most of your verses really close to a large diaphragm condenser (the 3000, or my personal choice is a Rode NTK). Then when you're tracking the louder vocals (in a different take), back up a few inches. Also good job on all the harmonies, your voice keeps getting better.

Things I don't like:

1) verses. they're not as strong, content or hook-wise, as your other songs. (maybe I just expect too much?) also, I think you should have the guitars in there the whole time, or consider altering the bass line for the first few verses to be a little more melodic and filling. It feels a little empty, sparse, whatever you want to call it.
2) the distorted scream. the problem with this scream, which i love on your other songs, is that it's on other songs, and it sounds almost the same (I think it's "answer me" on Job's Song, I think it's on Relativity also, on this song it's "me" @ 3:06). Maybe you could find a different distortion effect or something to vary this effect in different songs.

[maryslittlesecret]

warlock -- thanks for the hint. I may be a bit slow with this, but is there a mic modeler in Sonar? I peeked around in my plug-ins and couldn't find it... If it's in there, please let me know where. If not, I'd appreciate some details on this -- how much, how effective is it, etc. sounds like it could be very cool...

and charger -- awesome input as always. I can't argue with you on much. this is not my fave of our songs either (though some friends feel otherwise). if the guitar is key to my tone, you should downgrade... I'm using a Jackson PS4, which was all of about $400 shiped to my door... thanks on the bridge. for us, it almost seemed kind of empty with the (1st time) clean guitar and minimal loops, but I'm glad it worked for you. and I usually try to eat the mic on the vocals, but more often than not, the vocal dynamics change within the take so I don't often have the luxury of doing my 'loud' vox on a separate track... any tips for taming an 'all over' vocal track?

as for the less impressive elements, the verses were intended to be sparse and kind of hollow, but I can see where you might feel there's too little there. and the scream -- guilty. i'm running out of different ways to switch up my performance plus, screaming is all the rage these days -- gotta stay hip to the young kids . keep us posted on the "job's song" frankenstein project...

J
http://www.mp3.com/30SoS

[warlock]

Originally posted by maryslittlesecret
but is there a mic modeler in Sonar? I peeked around in my plug-ins and couldn't find it... If it's in there, please let me know

If I'm not mistaken the mic modeler is an Antares DirectX plugin.
There's usually a demo you can try, if you get the effect you need.

Keijo

[Meshuggah]

Damn.. I'm getting a POD 2.0.... ( already have a PS4 )