Doubled Rhythm Guitar Recording

[SirRiff]

Greetings,

Learning to play guitar a while ago to the early Metallica days, I became hugely influenced by the constant doubled guitars, especially the riff leading rhythm guitars. Even though I consider myself a fairly good "technical" guitarist, its just never as perfectly blended as I would like, it never sounds like one really kickass wide guitar.

So maybe I'm not as good as I think I am, my equipment isn't as good (it isn't), I am not panning/mixing right, or some other X-Factor is at work...please give me your advice, (especially you doubled guitar distortion guys)

What happened to all the political debates?
SirRiff

[tubedude]

Ummm, its always pretty much fallen right together for me. On rough, very rough, song drafts years ago with a four track, I would use a distortion pedal directly into the four track. It was just to save ideas and not lose them, but I could double it even with a transistory sounding little pedal and it would sound pretty damn cool, for what it was. I can't think of what you may be doing wrong. Maybe you need to check your mic-ing technique or something. I dunno. SOmetimes I'll use a different guitar or amp setting for each side, that tends to thicken ita little too. Add colors.

[warlock]

I've been playing guitar for about 8 years now. I play metal and I can tell you it's very hard to get two takes that sound right. We use a lot of palm muting a' la Paradise Lost and when you have two guitars chunking panned hard left/right they have to be perfectly played so they'll give the effect you want. It has nothing to do with equipment, you just have to nail the take.

Keijo

[tubedude]

Yeah, thats true, but its the little inconsitencies that thicken things up the best.

[Dan Colverson]

It's important to Change the EQ (however slightly doesn't really matter) in each take. James Hetfield always does 4 guitars (well at least he did in the good old days) to get that HUUUUUGE 'my guitar is god and you will obey' sound.

[SirRiff]

Greetings,

Damn I didn't know james did 4 tracks...thats insane

Its mostly the heavier distorted fast changing riffs i'm taking about. Acoustic strumming ain't that bad.

when I say "It don't come together" it doesn't sound like shit, but its not the "Obey my guitar" metallica sound. However I must admit the tone/quality of my recordings are rarely given a huge amount of attention....its pretty amaturish (but damn fun).

I would think the differences that make it thick more comes from the tunings and distortion patterns, because as sonus says, its the Tightest takes that sound huge.

I'v always wondered about panned reverbs, differential EQs and even tuning each guitar +/- 1/16 of a note to thicken it up.

Oh Yeah, another question, do the "Pros" actually pan HARD? or is it a soft thingy to get that center blend? I would hate to think how it would be to try to HARD pan two takes of Metallicas "blacked" or "Dyers eve"

Come to think of it, I always write and demo my stuff within days, so I guess its really not that long to perfect something new. Maybe I should dig out the metronome actually...

SirRiff

[Cyrokk]

If possible, you can play the riff in a different position on the second track and this may help beef up the track a bit. Playing a riff in E at the first position on one track and at the seventh position on the second track can give add a slight tonal variation. If you are doing chords, you can also try adding an extra note on one of the tracks: for example, playing the B on the G string of an E chord at the first fret. This approach was used often with Priest and Maiden.

Try panning the guitars at three and nine o'clock.

Cy

[getuhgrip]

I can't summon the concentration to do double takes so I'll clone tracks and play with octaves and delays on the second track.



BTW- you, eclips1, and that guy with the "American women starving themselves vs Terrorists" bullshit have taken the air out of political arguments temporarily. I for one am re-reading "The Mayflower and its effects on all things in Red Coats"

[SirRiff]

That different position comes in handy doing doubled lead licks and stuff, but since 90% of all cool heavy riffs are based around the low E at some time, its more of a interval added then a true double.

I heard a rumor about def lep back in the 80's doing one track for every note of a chord? thats just in sane, I can barely get past 3 tracks of similar stuff without major muddiness occuring.


As for political debates, its funny that a opinion from the real world (not inside the US) is a cause for concern. I would imagine the mental health of the entire US population would collapse if they had to spend one day in Iraq.

Opinions are like ass's,
Everyone has one,
And most of them ain't pretty.
SirRiff

[getuhgrip]

You mean one WHOLE day? A day without Dan Rather, Richard Simmons and Mary Tyler Moore? What the hell would we eat? Unleavoned bread cakes with sugar? How would I shave without electricity? How would I know which chicks to pursue if they're all wearin' the same baggy stuff from head to toe???

Relax, it was a joke anyway, mate.


Also, have you tried expanding the presence with different verbs and delay on the second track?

[Cyrokk]

Originally posted by SirRiff
That different position comes in handy doing doubled lead licks and stuff, but since 90% of all cool heavy riffs are based around the low E at some time, its more of a interval added then a true double.

Sorry for splitting hairs, but what I was referring to was one guitarist using the E5 chord at the first position, and one playing the E5 chord at the seventh position. Both are using the open low E string. The intervals and notes are exactly the same, except for an upper octave B. So yes, there is a doubling effect, with an extra B added at the top.

Cy

[Emeric]

Sirriff, that was Brads favorite band, Boston that was reported to do that. It wasn't true though.

[Dan Colverson]

Metallica, I don't think hard pan things. If you listen to the beggining of "Blackened" it's clearly on the left but not 100%. Probably something like 8/4 o'clock or 9/3

[Dimmi]

I struggled for a while with the subj...Until I got a POD.
Now it EVEN sounds OK when NOT doubled.
The only drawback is you always get the "POD's" tones. No flexibility. But I guess, one could try different modeling devices.

[Gargamel]

Use a Y cable. Send one cable to the current signal chain you are using and the other cable into the board dry (you may want to use a DI box and use a slight amount of compression on the uneffected/dry signal.....please be sure to use a minimal amount of compression...or try without compression. whatever your tastes are, go for it). After you have the Wet part and dry part recorded, send the dry signal out of your recorder (I'm not to sure what your using) into the signal chain (effects,dist,chorus...etc) -- The key is to tweak the patch/effect settings you are using to get a different guitar sound.

let me know how it works out for you......

bh

[Gargamel]

conts.

I forgot to say "send the dry signal out to the effects and back into the board wet. Pan hard L and R "

[Wallycleaver]

Originally posted by SirRiff
I can barely get past 3 tracks of similar stuff without major muddiness occuring.

Cut back on the distortion. If you have 3 tracks on 10 you'll get alot of shit. But cut back alot and you'll be able to layer more tracks and not get mud!

[Aaron Cheney]

Word. Not enough is always better than too much when it comes to tracking distorted guitars.
You should strive to make the tracks as rythmically tight as possible. Given that, it is still the subtle differences between performances that give you the great chorus effect. Someone that really had a knack for repeating performances from take to take was Randy Rhoads. When you go back and listen to those old Ozzy albums, it's pretty incredible. He doubled or tripled everything - including his leads and solos. (Not to mention that Ozzy doubled practically every word he sang.)
I always try to change something for the second track, be it amp, guitar, mic position, whatever. THat change will almost always make things a little more meaty if you can find a complimentary tone to the first track.
Personally, I've never had any problem doubling guitars and getting good results. I am really trying to get away from that, though. It's just so overdone.

Aaron
http://www.aaroncheney.com

[tubedude]

God, what I wouldnt give to have the next Randy Rhoades album. His tone was extremely clean at its dirtiest, really, especially in comparison with todays dirty guitar sounds. Yeah, they will sit better in a mix with less distortion.
One of the things I HATE about live bands around here.... They twist the mids all the way out, kick up the presence and the bass, turn the overdrive all the way saturated, and crank it up. Sure, it sounds great and heavy by itself, but when the band kicks in, they disapear. They always notice, and crank it up louder than the rest of the band. Headache central. They still can't be heard very well, their sound is too muddy and the bass guitar is kicking thier ass, since the guitar sound is all low and high end. The bass stomps the low end, and you're left with nothing but high end, which gets stomped by the cymbals and hats... sounds like shit. When I make suggestions, they scoff. Yet when they hear my band (if I even have one, not sure) they say "damn, you all sound way clear, how do you play with your guitar that low and still be heard?" And trust me, its still heavy and dirty, just not screwed up past the point of audibility.
Sorry for the rant on my 1,000th post.

[vulcanofga]

I have had good results with recording a stereo pair of tracks and moving one of them just a very small amount back in the time line, about 1 or 2mls.You can add a little verb to the track you moved and keep the other dry and pan them to taste.Try compressing the further track some and raise the level,with the reverb on post and it will be fat and it will blend well with the dry track.The dry track will maintain it's dynamic range and all of the attack and chunck.

Monty,