Oops.

[jtenner]

Hi guys. I'm totally inexperienced when it comes to home recording, but because I was the one with the four track and computer, I some how became the sound engineer for our demo. Well, problem is, we didn't have a drummer at the time we began recording, so we went ahead and laid down all of the guitar tracks using a drum machine to keep time. I had the idea that we could go ahead and replace the drum machine with a real drummer when the time came. Well, the time is here, and we were just about to start recording the drums when I mentioned it to a few people from other local bands. Both of the guys wished me best of luck, but weren't too optimistic when it came to getting the drums recorded. Anyway, after that long story, my question is this: Why is recording drums last a bad idea, and is there any way to do it if necessary? I hope someone can help, and I apologize for being such a moron. I just play guitar, I never intended to be a recording engineer. haha. Thanks.

[Gidge]

Sure you can do it.....disadvantages?...

drummers are too dumb to follow someone elses timing....make sure u give them a good headphone mix to play along to.....

you probably only have one track to play with....if you recorded drums first, you could record it on four tracks...get an even mix and bounce it to one or two tracks....

how many and what kind of mics are you mic'ing the drums with?...

[jtenner]

Okay, that's good news. I have a little Nady drum mic kit (not the best mic set, I'm sure, but enough for me) and a Carvin mixer, so what I was thinking was that I could go through the mixer into a single track on my recorder. Again, I'm not sure if that's the best idea or not, but I guess I'll see. On my computer, I have eight tracks to work with, so I think what I'm going to do is mix everything else down on it, add a click track, and hopefully our drummer will be able to follow along. I guess I'll just have to wait and see. I'm going to be doing it over the course of the next few days, so I'll post back and let you know how it turns out. Thanks a lot for your help.

[mikeh]

As a drummer I think I take offense to Gidge's statement - we drummers aren't to dumb to follow someone else's timing - we just know our timing is so much better then the other musicians - in particular those ego inflated guitar players!

Seriously, the main problem with putting down drums last is three fold:

1. Many drummers don't have good timing - or are intimidated playing to a click
2. Often the other players have not laid down a solid track for a drummer to lock in to
3. The headphone mix is difficult to follow

Many years ago I lost a couple of good studio gigs cause I couldn't play to click tracks ( I woodshedded big time to correct the problem). Everyone I did gigs with (and we're talking lots of gigs) thought I was a very solid player - which is why I was offered the studio gigs in the first place. But keeping a live groove together is very different from a studio groove. Keep this in mind as your drummer is putting done tracks - and maybe just maybe cut some slack if possible.

As Gidge indicated, it's very important to make sure that the drummer has a good mix to follow (most drummers want to lock into the bass guitar more than anything - but I like to figure out what is the key melodic statement (rhythem guitar or maybe a keyboard line). Often it is easier for a drummer to follow a "percussion groove" (congas/tambourine/clave, etc) rather than a single click. Just following a cowbell (or whatever) playing quarter notes can be difficult - more so for a cat with no studio chops.

Hopefully you have your multi track in sync with your drum machine so that you can adjust the feed to your drummer.

Good luck!

[Bedubs]

Wow...Gidge comes out swinging. I would take offense to that statement however, my reply would most likely use multi-syllabic words which we (drummers) know those little pluckers can't understand so I'll just let it drop.

I think mikeh covered the basic reasons for not recording the drums last so I really have nothing to say in this post.

-b

[jtenner]

Wow, I didn't mean to start such a fierce debate. haha. Anyway, I just wanted to say I tried recording our drums today, and everything seemed to go okay. I used a standard click track and I had a decent mix in the headphones, which I'm sure made it much easier, and everything came out quite well. Of course, there is a slightly off-time hit once or twice, but it's just a demo, I guess, and nothing terrible. Anyway, I just wanted to let everyone know, as you who are more experienced at this than I know already, I'm sure, that it can be done, although I'm sure it is much more difficult. Thanks a lot for all of your help, and now I've learned my lesson about the proper order to record tracks.

[Gidge]

Guys it was a joke...calm down....

I have lots of friends who are drummers....


How is a drummer like a watch without a battery?......

Twice a day they have the right time.....

[gghell]

gidge was right drummers cant tell time and cant keep it loli have been playing guitar for 16 years and my drumer is a real good player but if he is in a good mood he plays fast bad mood slow so we try to play on the days he just feels average lol!!!!just wanted to have some fun with all the drummers hahahah

[Transputer]

Just to add to the above posts - ear protection. For many years I would cut tracks in the studio using a very loud headphone mix. This was to overcome the inherent problem of sound leaking into the cans and the tendency for foldback to include a mix of the drum sound going to tape.
Now the cans used were usually Beyer DT100 types- enclosed, and capable of and indeed being run at high volume. Most drummers might relate to the sight of the audience blinking involuantarily when a snare or hi hat in particular are smacked with some force and then put out thru a nKilowatt rig - I certainly have The same thing happens with headphone foldback and the massive volume will totally fuck your ears if you regularly submit to high heaphone foldback levels. In addition an insiduous side effect of this is poor timing, inability to deal with a click etc. The drummer must take control of the volume element to playing the drums - loads never do, buy edrums, give up etc.. So make sure the drummer has a bunch of those 29 dB rated yellow foam ear plugs at least. When a drummer is used to plugs it will make a big difference to what you you get out of him or her.

Cheers

[Transputer]

BTW having re read my post don't think I have anything against edrums. They are different in response to acoustic drums and cymbals. But I did happily sell my Simmons drums and fell about laughing the other day when a new sales guy in my local drum shop tried to sell top line ddrum edrums to me as a replacement for acoustics