Do you need drum pads?

[Krystof01]

I was curious as I read the post entitled dm-5. Mikeh (if you there) said

"In particular, how are you triggering the unit (with a midi keyboard or with drum pads). "

It hadn't ever occured to me; can you buy a drum module (say a dm pro) and obtain the same sounds for recording as you would using pads?

How does this work; do you assign a note on a piano to a sound (like you do to the pads), can you program drum kits?

What criteria would the MIDI keyboard have to have; just capable of MIDI communication? By using a weighted keyboard does that mean you could get a sound similar to striking a pad softly for example (ie strike the note on the keyboard softly)?

If all the above is true (or the majority), what are the drawbacks to this approach?

I am on a budget so I could afford a module and I also intend to buy a digital piano/organ. If I didn't have to buy the electronic kit (except module) this may be an option.

Thanks in advance for any insights you can give me,
Krystof.

[mikeh]

Yes you can trigger a drum module useing a MIDI keyboard. Most drum modules already come with standard MIDI note assignments - kick is normally note #36, snare is #38, closed hi-hat is #42, etc. (Note: It it industry standard that MIDI channel 10 is used for drums). Naturally you can reassign (in the module) what sound corresponds to what MIDI note.

The primary thing the keyboard needs (beyond basic MIDI send ability) is the ability to send velocity - which in simple terms means how hard or how soft you hit the key. Some keyboards have a velocity range of 1-127 (there are 127 "steps" in MIDI assignment - just like panning of 1 is hard left and panning of 127 is hard right) and some transmit maybe 7-12 steps of velocity dynamics (obviously 127 is better)

The primary drawback is that you are playing drums with fingers on keys rather than with sticks - which for me, a drummer is not natural - but since you are not actually a drummer, this is maybe not a bad thing. Naturally you don't have the 4 way thing going (2 feet and 2 hands) - most people program with keys useing just the 2 index fingers - but again since you're not a drummer this may be OK for you. All you do is make multiple passes - like program kick & snare first, then record hi-hat and toms, etc.

You mention you want to buy a "digital piano/organ" - almost any decent synth in the $600 range (maybe even less) has decent piano and organ sounds as well as tons of horns, stings and most importantly drum sounds.

If I were you, and I was going to buy a MIDI keyboard anyway - I would look for a decent synth and try to utilize the on board drum sounds - maybe even consider a keyboard/work station that allows you some on board sequencing (to build drum parts before committing them to your recording medium of choice). If you don't like the sounds you can always add a DM-Ppro (or whatever later)

I'm a big fan of the Roland XP-30 it has tons of good sounds (it comes with over 1000 sounds) and it can be expanded by adding up to 2 addition sound cards. It's got some decent piano sounds several good organ sounds - and some pretty decent drum sounds. Plus it is designed to be a performance keyboard, which in my opinion makes it pretty easy to use (even if your not a "keyboard player").

It doesn't have sequencing - but for the price I think it's one of the best bargains on the market - and I looked at several keyboards before I bought an XP-30.

If you want something with more of a playing surface (but don't want to go the "drum kit" route) - Roland just came out with an SPD-6 (more of a consumer, vs, pro level unit) that has 6 pads (each pad is about 3"x6") which has about 100 on board sounds (and has MIDI out) which you can play with sticks or with hands it's about $250. Yamaha also has a "consumer" model (don't remeber the model #). Again, if you don't like the sounds you can always use it only as a trigger - for whatever module you get.

Hope this helps.

[Krystof01]

Cheers Mikeh; your a credit to this forum.

[Krystof01]

Oh yeh; just remembered. I got in touch with an Alesis dealer and they say that the Alesis DM pro kit has been discountinued but they have one ex-demo kit left for £1399 (that's pounds/not dollars).

Any opionions on ex-demo and also the price.

Thanks,
krystof.

[mikeh]

Like anything an ex-demo depends on how beat-up it is. Since the DM-Pro is mostly push buttons - check out if they are worn (or if they look real dirty - like they've been pressed alot).

Also try the module to see how well it scrolls thru the settings - in particular as you try to move in one step increments. Naturally, look for any obvious dents, etc.

Normally, the abuse on a demo rack mount unit is minimal.

Regarding price - I don't know what the conversion rate from dollars to pounds is - so I don't know if 1399 lbs. is a good price. A clearance item should normally reflect about 40% less than the retail price.

Good luck.

[Executivos]

This thread caught my eye and I think this is kinda what I'm looking for.

I use a midi controller for all of my drums right now, and I don't like it. I'm not a "drummer" but I can handle the 2 hands 2 feet thing.

I want one of those electronic sets but I don't have the money. The spd-6 thing said it has inputs for kick and high hat. Will this work like i'm thinking it will? I have a cheesy drum pad and it's fine except for no foot pedal. Do you know anything about that feature?

[mikeh]

Yes the SPD-6 does have jacks to accept a kick trigger and a hi-hit trigger. Being a Roland unit I would suggest you stick with the Roland triggers.

The basic Roland kick trigger is a KD7 (if I recall) and costs about $200. The KD7 is a small pad that works with a standard kick pedal - but you need to replace the standard beater with an inverted beater (the inverted beater comes with the KD7).

Roland also makes a mesh kick pad (from the V-Drum series) that accepts a standard pedal (or even a double pedal) - it costs about $400. Some drummers prefer the feel of this pad to the KD7.

I don't remeber the number for the Roland hi-hat trigger (it also costs about $200-$300). It's got very good feel.

However, by the time you buy an SPD-6, a kick trigger and a hi-hat trigger you're at about $750. For $1,000 you can buy the Yamaha DTExpress and for $1200 you can buy the new Roland kit (I can't remeber the model number).

I think the SPD-6 is a nice little multi pad trigger (for layering MIDI tracks) but if you want to do the 4 limb thing you would probably be better off with a kit.

[Executivos]

yeah it looks like it's a bit pricey and you don't get the feel of a set. oh well I guess I'll save up. Maybe I can find one used.

[balls1299]

If you're looking for good drum sounds and don't need a drum module per se, newer Roland boards have some fantastic drum sounds. I have an Alesis DM5 that I trigger with Nimrods. It's good for what I use it for(replacing and doubling some live drums) but for sampled sounds, my Roland unit has some great kits. Also, if you don't know what Nimrods are, they are real small tubular triggers that can be stand mounted. They go for around $30. each. You can find them on ebay too.

[reco]

By the by:
Pintech makes a Kick trigger for like $30-40.
I have played it a bit and Its pretty usable. I mean it triggers better than my old simmons octo kick pad.
Any one have any Ideas for better pad than these stupid Remo deals?

[Executivos]

that is VERY interesting. Here's my question:

How do you use a trigger....Do I have to buy that other drum pad set with a kick trigger input or is there are way to use it now with my existing pad set.

Basically what I'm asking is what kind of plug does it have?

[balls1299]

it's 1/4 inch. What system do you have now?

[Executivos]

an old cheesy one. the sounds are TERRIBLE. The only usable thing in it is the fact that it's has a midi out so I can trigger sounds from my computer.

[j]

hi mikeh,

you mentioned roland drum triggers and the spd-6....i was looking at the spd-6 and the pdf file for it on the Roland site suggests the FS-5U and the DP-2 foot pedals....i called Roland and someone in tech support told me that these should work for the kick and hi hat inputs on the spd-6.....these pedal are like $20 or $30 each ..quite a bit cheaper than the triggers....it does sound odd that a sustain pedal (or whatever) would work ...any opinions?

also,,, any opinions on the spd-6?

[Executivos]

yeah thats what i thought too. A sustain pedal wouldn't have the feel of a kick pedal.

[j]

true,........ i'm also wondering about velocity sensitivity.

[Roel]

Originally posted by mikeh
Some keyboards have a velocity range of 1-127 (there are 127 "steps" in MIDI assignment - just like panning of 1 is hard left and panning of 127 is hard right) and some transmit maybe 7-12 steps of velocity dynamics (obviously 127 is better)

Ok... Just a little nitpickin'. I'm good at that.

The range of any midi parameter is 0 to 127, that's 7 bits. So, for the panning, 0 is hard left!! However, you were right on the velocity, cause a velocity of 0 equals a 'note off' message, so the true range of velocity is 1-127...

I implemented the MIDI standard in my homemade MIDI-CV convertor. My endwork-project for school... Still doesn't work.

The rest of your post was right on.

[mikeh]

Roel - thank you for the correction!

j - I would suspect the FS5U and DP2 work "work" to trigger a MIDI note on and off command - but as you and Executivos point out there has to be an obvious compromise of feel and control. I can't imagine that anyone (even a non-drummer) would like useing these as kick/hi-hat pedals)

Several years ago I owned a Yamaha "comsumer" multi pad controller - it accepted a keyboard expression pedal to trigger the kick sound - I hated it. It could barely function with basic 1/2 notes or 1/4 notes, there was no way you could even try 1/16 notes.

As I said in a previous post, I think the SPD-6 is a nice "consumer" level controller which would be good for someone to enter MIDI notes into a sequencer (useing hands or sticks) - I would think the best application would be enter a kick and snare pattern. then add a hihat pattern, then add tom fills etc. (as mutiple sequences). The SPD-6 is not a drum set and would not function well in that capacity - although it would be a good assesory to a drum kit (for adding other percussion sounds to a performance).

The SPD-6 does have decent on board sounds - but it does not have hundreds of sounds (a couple of snares couple of kicks, a few toms, etc.)

If you want a kit, save a little more and buy a DTExpress or the new Roland lit (I think it's a TD-6???).

As Reco pointed out Pintech does make low cost triggers - I have not had a lot of hands on with the Pintechs, but I thought they tracked well when I did use them.

[reco]

I Tried the Pintechs with a spd and it worked very well.
It was a mesh head trig kinda like a v-drum pad but it only cost like $150.oo.......
The h/h hand triger was a roland 7 inch pad and a roland h/h pedal and a pintech kick.
I liked the kit well.
and Im gonna get one in the next two months or so to supplement my dm-5 and trigs and drum machines.