Let's Talk Aux Busses

[dachay2tnr]

I have used the Aux Busses in Sonar/Cakewalk with success in the past. However, most of this has been through dumb luck, rather than a complete understanding of what they are and how they work.

Can anyone explain the settings to me? In particular, the track send, track pre/post settings, and the aux bus send and return controls.

My understanding of the "track send" is that it controls how much of the track signal that gets routed to the bus. So I can have some of the sound go directly to the Mains, and some routed to the bus before going to the Mains. Therefore, if I set the track send to "full", that means the entire signal goes to the bus first. (Of course, I'm still not sure why it is labeled in db, rather than %.)

Where I am really confused, however, is what the aux bus send and return controls do. What exactly do these settings control?

Also the pre and post settings. These apparently have to do with whether the signal is sent to the bus prior to or after the track fader. This means, I assume, that when set to "pre" the track fader will have no effect whatsoever. Whereas, when set to post, it will still control the volume settings?

As I said, I've been able to use the bus successfully - by turning knobs until I get it to sound the way I want it to. But I would much rather be working from an understanding of what it is I'm actually controlling with each setting.

Anyone care to attempt to explain this? Thanks!

[AlChuck]

I'm not a good one to answer your questions, as I rarely mess much with this myselfc -- I seem to record a lot but rarely get to the mixing stage with any projects...

... but it sounds to me like your understanding is right on.

Where I am really confused, however, is what the aux bus send and return controls do. What exactly do these settings control?

Hmmm.... I'm not really sure... but perhaps you can send an aux bus to another aux bus, and cascade effects?

Also the pre and post settings. These apparently have to do with whether the signal is sent to the bus prior to or after the track fader. This means, I assume, that when set to "pre" the track fader will have no effect whatsoever. Whereas, when set to post, it will still control the volume settings?

Right, with the caveat that the fader still works when the send is set to pre-fader, it just works on whatever is left from the send level setting, assuming it's less than 100%. That is, if you send all the signal to the bus in pre-fader mode, the fader has nothing left to work with, yes.

[dachay2tnr]

Right, with the caveat that the fader still works when the send is set to pre-fader, it just works on whatever is left from the send level setting, assuming it's less than 100%. That is, if you send all the signal to the bus in pre-fader mode, the fader has nothing left to work with, yes.

Agreed. The fader just has no control over the volume level that is being sent to the bus.

Hmmm.... I'm not really sure... but perhaps you can send an aux bus to another aux bus, and cascade effects?

No, that's not the case. I don't think you can route a bus to another bus. It has something to do with the amount being sent to and returned from the bus - although the controls are on the bus itself.

What I want to use it for is to control the volume level of the bus. In other words, I am sending a three-part vocal background from 3 seperate tracks to an aux bus. I get the balance between the three tracks and send all three (100% track send) to an aux bus post fader. Now there comes a part in the song where I want to drop the level of the background voices, but still maintain the balance. Seems to me I should be able to do that with an envelope and the bus controls. There is no volume control on the bus, just a send and return and a pan control. What concerns me is which is the right control to use - the send or the return? Both seem to drop the volume, but since I don't understand what each is designed to do, I'm not sure which is the best to use.

Therefore, I'm looking to see if someone can tell me what the function of these are. Also, it seems redundant to have both a track send and a bus send (except I presume the bus send reduces the amount of signal from ALL the tracks. Of course, this raises the question of where does the rest of the signal go to. On the Track send, I am assuming the balance of the signal continues straight to the Main Outs. But where does it go to on the Bus send? Again to the Main Outs? Or, is it simply reduced.

Also, puzzling is why the settings appear to be in db. If my understanding is correct, it would make more sense to have the settings in percentages?

Can anyone provide a simple explanation of the operation?

BTW, ALchuck - howcum no mixing for you? That, to me, is the most fun part of this whole adventure.

[Tekker]

Ok, this is how I think everything works together:
Your channel aux send, sends the signal to the aux bus; then your "aux bus send" sends the signal to the plug-in effect (like an analog mixer's aux bus sends the signal to external effects unit) and your "aux bus return" returns the signal from the plug-in.

And the reason it is measured in db and not percentages is the same reason your aux sends on your analog mixer (to the external effects) is measured in db.....that's the way they made it.

I hope that helps.

-tkr

[AlChuck]

BTW, ALchuck - howcum no mixing for you? That, to me, is the most fun part of this whole adventure.

I like playing the most. Recording is secondary to me. Usually if I capture a good performance, it sounds pretty good and I don't agonize over it, I'm happy, I'll whip out a very fast and unstudied mix and play it for my friends. Plus I rarely seem to ever take any of my rough ideas too much further than that, at least at this point in time. Perhaps I'm collecting a set of drafts and at some point I'll finish some of them off and then worry about mixing to make them sound as professional and finished as possible...

[dachay2tnr]

Tekker - I actually think you're right.

So now the question is, if the aux bus send is set to something less than "full", does that mean the remainder of the signal is routed directly through the bus to the Mains without going through the plug-in? So, in essence, all you are controlling with the send setting is the amount of effect?

This then would seem to have essentially the same effect as the wet/dry ratio setting in the plug-in (assuming it's a reverb or chorus).

So, if I want to control volume levels, it would seem I should leave the "send" set to full and lower the "return".

This is all guesswork on my part, but the logic of this seems to imply the send would control the wet/dry mix, and the return wouild control the volume. Sound reasonable?

If so, this helps a lot.

[Tekker]

So now the question is, if the aux bus send is set to something less than "full", does that mean the remainder of the signal is routed directly through the bus to the Mains without going through the plug-in?

I don't think so, because the sound doesn't get any louder unless you have the send and the return up turned up. So I think that if the send is less than full, the rest of the signal goes nowhere.

So, if I want to control volume levels, it would seem I should leave the "send" set to full and lower the "return".

I think that sounds right. And that's probably the reason why (in PA 9 at least, I don't know how it is in Sonar) the send level is turned all the way up by default and the return is down, that way you only adjust the return to get the amout of effect you want.

This is all guesswork on my part, but the logic of this seems to imply the send would control the wet/dry mix, and the return wouild control the volume.

Lets see, it "seems like" the rest of the dry signal isn't really going anywhere, so I think they're both a "wet" control volume, because turning the send up and down doesn't do anything to the dry signal and doesn't sound any different than turning the return up and down. Try it pre-fader, there is no difference in sound so I really don't think it would make any difference however you wanted to do it.

Sound reasonable?

Sounds reasonable to me.

-tkr

[crosstudio]

it works like an analog mixer.

1. a tap of the original signal is routed to the aux bus.

2. the channel's aux send determines how much signal is sent to the aux.

3. the aux's send determines how much of any signal it gets is processed.

4. the aux return determines how much of the processed signal is sent to the outputs.

[dachay2tnr]

Crossman - You are absolutely correct that this is based on an analog mixer. I guess the problem is I don't really understand how they work either.

3. the aux's send determines how much of any signal it gets is processed.

Does the remainder of the signal get sent unprocessed to the Main? If so, then the Aux Send would seem to work something like a wet/dry ratio control.

4. the aux return determines how much of the processed signal is sent to the outputs.

So if I have the Channel Send and Aux Send controls set to "full", then the Aux Return would act as a master control for the volume of everything assigned to the bus? (Actually strength of signal I guess, but I think the result is the same).

Please tell me this is correct, as I think I'm beginning to understand (famous last words ).

[tubedude]

Consider the aux bus as an effects loop. When I want a reverb on drums, I assign the reverb to the bus, then route each track through it, and manipulate effects levels with the % slider. All drums get same reverb, and I save CPU. On the same hand, I set everything pre fader that way set levels go to the verb and other effects, and are always the same. If you set a verb level post fader and get it right at max gain where you want it, if you move the fader up, you'll slam the input of the verb and get uglies. Thats why you can go pre or post. Pre allows it to hit the verb 1st, then you can turn it up or down without affecting effects levels and such. Turnung fader up and down will give the same level of reverb at all times. If you have it post, turning it down will reduce effects levels as you turn it down, and increase if you turn up. Ususally not desirable, but keep it in mind as a trick for later. If you run everything at 100% on the track you can then fade your drums, or whatever, out by using the bus fader, and everything else will stay normal. Most times you want your bus effects at 100% wet, and then decide how much you want to send through at the channel strip.
I think I said everything right. If not, I apologize
Peace,
Paul

[Tekker]

Does the remainder of the signal get sent unprocessed to the Main? If so, then the Aux Send would seem to work something like a wet/dry ratio control.

I don't "think" it does, which was what I was saying before (I guess I didn't explain what I was talking about very good), on an alalog mixer when you turn up you master aux send it doesn't send the dry signal to the effects AND send the rest of the signal (which isn't turned up on the aux send) to the output, all that gets sent to the output is what goes out the send and comes back on the return. All these controls control the wet signal, so in order to get the wet/dry signal you need to adjust the channel fader to mix the dry signal and the the channel aux send, and the master aux send and return to get the wet signal. I could be wrong but that just sounds logical to me.

-tkr

[tubedude]

I just woke up so maybe I'm seeing things wrong, anyway... if you send 50% to the aux, then 50% does go dry to the main, so no... that wasn't right. Thats why you generally set up the aux bus at 100% wet, and mix in whatever amount of effect you want on the track with the tracks aux send. Or, you can set up the right amount of effects mix in the aux, then just patch everything in 100%, but that defeats the purpose on drums and stuff where you want differing amounts of the same reverb. You want to do that pre fader, unless you want the effect amount controlled by the fader, which can sometimes cause problems, like slamming the input or causing a compressor to pump.
Again, I just woke up, hope that makes sense.

[dachay2tnr]

I'll never get this right

On an analog mixer there is generally a fader on the bus. There is no fader on the Sonar Aux Bus.

Here's what I'm looking to do. I have three vocal harmony tracks that I have "balanced" using the track volume settings. Now I send all 3 tracks - post fader - to the Aux Bus. In the bus I apply reverb. The reverb plug-in has a wet/dry control that allows me to set the "wetness" of reverb.

All is fine so far. But there comes a part in the song where I need to lower the volume of the three tracks - while still maintaining the balance among the voices and the reverb settings. An automated fader on the bus would do exactly that - but it doesn't exist. All I've got are send and return controls. So I'm trying to figure out what it is these controls do, and can I use them for volume control.

I know I can go back and put individual volume envelopes on the three tracks, and lower each one proportionally. But this seems to be a long way around something that should be much simpler to do.

If I automate the Aux Bus Return control, will that reduce the volume level and act like a fader for my purposes???

[Tekker]

Yeah in that sense it would be considered a wet/dry control, because the dry signal stays the same (the aux send doesn't adjust the dry signal's level) then you adjust the wet signal in relation to the dry.

I guess what I was going off of was when he said "So now the question is, if the aux bus send is set to something less than "full", does that mean the remainder of the signal is routed directly through the bus to the Mains without going through the plug-in?". Because the rest of the signal doesn't go to the output, so in that sense it is not a wet/dry control because lowering the wet level doesn't make the dry signal louder, nor does increasing it make the dry signal quieter. You would have to adjust the volume fader and the send to get the wet/dry mix. I don't know, I hope this is making sense.

-tkr

[Tekker]

Yes, the aux return would be just like the volume fader.

-tkr

[crosstudio]

the aux send doesn't work in percentages it works in db.

the aux bus gets a 'tap' or 'copy' of the signal. the channel aux send level determines how loud a tap the aux bus gets. in other words, the amount of dry signal that goes to the mains is not affected by how much signal you send to the aux bus.

ie...
with a reverbFx in the aux, but set to bypass, send a -10db tone to the mains, while the track channel aux send level, the aux send level, and the aux return level are all 'full' you'll get more than a -10db signal at the main.

[tubedude]

Originally posted by dachay2tnr
I'll never get this right

On an analog mixer there is generally a fader on the bus. There is no fader on the Sonar Aux Bus.

Here's what I'm looking to do. I have three vocal harmony tracks that I have "balanced" using the track volume settings. Now I send all 3 tracks - post fader - to the Aux Bus. In the bus I apply reverb. The reverb plug-in has a wet/dry control that allows me to set the "wetness" of reverb.
Ok, lets try going pre fader, right click on the 1st fader, select a color, and select the same color for the other two faders, now when you move one, they all move together, and your reverb stays the same. This will not be the case post fader. Also, try setting your reverb 100% wet and only sending what you want through it, see how that does for ya.

All is fine so far. But there comes a part in the song where I need to lower the volume of the three tracks - while still maintaining the balance among the voices and the reverb settings. An automated fader on the bus would do exactly that - but it doesn't exist. All I've got are send and return controls. So I'm trying to figure out what it is these controls do, and can I use them for volume control.

I know I can go back and put individual volume envelopes on the three tracks, and lower each one proportionally. But this seems to be a long way around something that should be much simpler to do.

If I automate the Aux Bus Return control, will that reduce the volume level and act like a fader for my purposes???

[tubedude]

Ummm, that didnt work like I expected... there is a reply hidden in that last one, though...

[Tekker]

Tubedude, you could have edited your post and fixed it.

Also, don't you usually want your effects going post fader, so that when you lower the faders you don't drown out the dry track, because the reverb (or other effect) stays at the same level as the dry is being turned down? And even if it didn't completely drown it out, that would still seem a unnatual to have the reverb stay at the same level as the dry track went up and down.

-tkr

[tubedude]

Ummm... I'm not sure not that my thinking is on track lately... I've been pretty air headed lately, life sucks, lots on my mind... I cant remember if Sonar ships it to the aux bus and then back to the channel, or to the aux bus and out the door. I'm gonna look it up. If it ships it back to the channel, then the fader should still control everything, even though its been routed through the aux bus 1st.
I do remember its in chapter 10 ( i think) of the manual. I'll check and post later.
P

[tubedude]

Yep, I was wrong... I looked it up, if its pre fader, the verb stays even when you turn down the fader. Dunno what I was thinking. Told you I've been lost lately.

[dachay2tnr]

OK gentlemen, I conducted a test to see if I could figure all this out. To start with, Crossstudio is correct, the Aux Bus is a tap - the original signal continues to go straight through the track and then meets back up with Aux Bus signal at the Main. This is a problem for what I wanted to do - since if I lower the Bus Return, it will only reduce the volume on the Bus, while the original signal going through the Track remains unaffected. The problem with this is it will change the effects ratio - i.e., the effects volume (from the Bus) gets lower in proportion to the un-effected signal.

Here's the test I did.
1. Set up a project with just a single track. The track is routed to Virtual Main A.
2. Set up an Aux Bus routed to Virtual Main B. By looking at the playback meters on the two Virtual Mains I could visually see when a signal was coming through the track (Main A) and when it was coming through the Bus (Main B).
3. When I routed the Track to the Bus pre-fader, the signal came out both Mains. Moving the Track fader only affected the Track Signal - it had no effect on the Bus (Duh!)
4. If I routed the Bus post fader, I still got two signals (one track and one bus), and the Track fader controlled volume on both signals (again, duh!).
5. So the solution?? If I set up the Bus pre-fader, I can turn down the Track fader to infinity, and 100% of the signal will come through the Bus. Which is what I want. The problem with this becomes the ability to control the volume ratios among all Tracks routed to the Bus. I had been previously been using the Track Faders to do this, but if I drop them all down to infinity, obviously they can't serve this purpose. However, I imagine I can then use the Track sends for this purpose. By using different settings on each of the Track Sends, I can get a balance among the tracks using the track sends, and use the Bus Return to control the overall volume of the blended Tracks - without affecting the amount of effects heard.

I think I'm getting it. (Although I have had this thought before and was wrong.)

BTW, the analogy to an analog mixer is a little weak. First of all, as mentioned earlier, an analog mixer will generally have a fader on the Bus, and no such thing exists in CW/Sonar. Secondly, there are usually Track assign buttons on an analog mixer. These allow you to assign a Track to the Mains, or to a Bus. When you assign a Track to a Bus in Sonar, it is also still assigned to the Mains - which is part of what was confusing me.

[elbenj]

I,m glad you started this thread dachay2tnr, because like you I have simply lucked out in my use of the Aux buss in the past.

but if I may, I would like to offer the way I use it, and maybe a solution for what you stated you wanted to do from the start.

I would first take that 3 part harmony and group them together as one..and treat it as one instrument..because once you have established the balance between them there should be no need to change that.....also maybe consider creating a stereo pair..by either singing the parts two or three times and keeping the best two..or cloning the one take and add some delay..enough to get them to separate in the stereo field and not phase..or just simply what will work for your application...and there would also be no need to pan each voice separately because they will separate themselves by virtue of being different voices..as in a chord on a piano or guitar..this is prettty much what is being done in the pro studios..

Now youve got your one track..or two if you go the stereo route..
that you can route to the aux buss..

I setup the aux bus this way..aux send balance..panned center..
the aux send level..fully clockwise..( I want the track aux send level to determine how much signal is going to be fed back to the main buss after Ive set up my aux bus effect) aux return fully clockwise..and the aux return balance..centered ..and my Pre/Post
selector at pre.

Now I guess I need to back up..the main track fader has already been adjusted for a good dry level within the mix..this is my dry level...the signal going through the aux bus is my wet signal..so I am achieving my wet/dry ratio..by the main track fader (dry) and the track aux send level (wet)..most of the time I dont need to crank up the track send much at all..just a touch..especially for reverb on a vocal...

In your case, where you want to lower the backing vocals at a certain point, you can create a volume envelope..and in my case ..you would have to instruct me..on how to do that..because..I have never used envelopes in Cakewalk..I believe I tried it..screwed it up somehow..and never tried again..
have always resorted to using automation..but this is a perfect example of where it would be better..but I will also go on to say that it is probably always the best option..in regards to panning and volume changes..and Im ready to start using it..so I think I will start a thread on how to use envelopes and I hope you will be so kind and instruct me and others who would want to know

I dont know if that helped but..thats how Ive done it so far..and i believe between whats already been posted and what is to follow we will ultimately have a better understanding of how it all works!

Dont forget to help me out with the envelopes

I also was wondering if maybe you, AlChuck, Tekker, and any of the others would like maybe to sorta create a project utilizing Cakewalk and all the other components, synths internal and external, mixers etc etc..in this forum..You know sorta how to do it from start to finish..I think this would benefit us all in some way or another..either in changing some of our dinosaur methods of doing things up to helping with actual arranging of songs..which I know is a stickler for alot of folks.....just a thought

[crosstudio]

what i do for stereo mic'd guitar tracks and multi-part harmony tracks is:

1. group the track volume faders

2. (using a different group) group the track aux send knobs.

3. set all my track fx sends to be post fader

4. set all my aux fx to 100% wet.

using this method, the track volume itself is the dry signal and the signal coming back from the aux bus is the wet signal. then you control the wetness of the signal with the track aux send knob. when the volume faders lower, the fx lowers too so it stays in balance.

if you are using an effect as a track insert, then you want to control the amount of the effect with the dry/wet mix levels in the effect; however, if you are using an effect in the aux bus, then you want to set the effect to 100% wet.

[Tekker]

BTW, the analogy to an analog mixer is a little weak. First of all, as mentioned earlier, an analog mixer will generally have a fader on the Bus, and no such thing exists in CW/Sonar. Secondly, there are usually Track assign buttons on an analog mixer. These allow you to assign a Track to the Mains, or to a Bus. When you assign a Track to a Bus in Sonar, it is also still assigned to the Mains - which is part of what was confusing me.

For the more "expensive" consoles (and some cheaper ones too) that is the case, but on my (cheap Behringer mixer ) it has a right left main bus (no monitor/aux busses) and then it has the channel aux send (which sends the signal directly to the aux output, and there is no "master aux send") and then the master aux return which is a knob that turns, not a fader (just like in CW). So I guess they just modeled their console view after the "cheaper" mixers (why, I don't know ).

But there comes a part in the song where I need to lower the volume of the three tracks - while still maintaining the balance among the voices and the reverb settings.

Is that because they get louder in one spot and you want to try to keep the level constant? If that's what your trying to do, you should try adding a volume evelope to each harmony track and just fixing the level with those. That way you don't have to try to fix it with the fader.

-tkr