Tubedude Tip-O-the-day for newbies 7/4/01

[tubedude]

Todays tip:
Track it hot!
What does hot mean? Tubes are warmed up? A/C turned off? I mean that AFTER going through your simple-as-possible signal chain to the recorder, try to get everything as close to red as possible without ever going over. On tape decks (4 tracks etc) I ususally go into the red a little, as the tape is sometimes forgiving and can actually sound cool. Depends on the recorder. Redlining a digital recorder/converter can be quite ugly and you'll know when you do it. If you have something that goes over every now and then, insert a compressor and take off that extra little peak so as to keep everything as hot as possible. Some things might need quite a bit of squashing with the compressor. Use as little as possible, though. Less is more.
This goes for drums also. Here's what I see often in inexperienced setups...
lets say we have kick, snare, 2 toms mic'ed and 2 overhead mics, each mic going to its own track on your DAW. People have a tendency to "pre-mix" the drums during tracking by getting a good level on what drum you want the loudest (snare or kick?) and recording the others lower. NO NO NO!!! Record each drum just shy of clipping/redline (again, insert a compressor if you need it). Recording everything at maximum input aids your signal-to-noise ratio, along with tracking some instruments as loud as possible. After you have tracked them, then adjust the volumes of each track appropriately. If you do not do this already, this will be an improvement!
Do this with every track, from whispers to screams, make sure everything is good and hot. Adjust volume AFTER you track it.
And last... back to the signal chain thing again... make sure EVERYTHING in your signal chain is pushing a hot signal too. If it comes in at -2 db, it should come out the same or real close and into the next piece. Keep it hot all the way to the recorder.
More tomorrow!
Peace,
Paul

[ola]

I hope you're putting these tips in a document. It looks like it could be pretty good stuff for a "HR for dummies"

[Blue Bear Sound]

I'm not disagreeing with you Tubedude, but let's say I'm providing an alternate point of view!

Especially in a digital recording environment, (where tape saturation is not as much of a necessity to improve S/N ratio), there is an argument for getting the levels to tape so that when mixing, the rough levels for each instrument when coming off the recorder is in the zero-mark range of your console -- so simply a push mix of all faders at 0, gets you in the ballpark right away for reasonably balanced mix level.

This means you're not killing your board's headroom with excessively hot signals coming off the recorder.

For example, yes you can record that screaming guitar lead so that it peaks near zero on the recorder's meters, but coming back to the board, you now have to have the fader sit at -30 for it to sit normally in the mix, relative to all the other tracks.

Bottom line watching your gain structure and headroom on the board is, in many cases, more important than worrying about whether you've maximized all your track levels as close as possible to digital 0.

Bruce

[psmith66]

Bruce,

Is it fair to assume that one can afford to track at something less than the hottest level for certain tracks (ie that you don't plan on bringing to the front of the final mix) in the digital domain considering inherent noise is typically less than what you'd expect in an analog tape environment? In other words, in a digital environment, can't you expect to "get away with" a lesser S/N than you'd require via tape - without a negligable degradation to the final overall mix? Isn't digital recording inherently less noisy, all other things constant, than analog tape?

[Roel]

Not pretending to know it all, just wondering...

When recording at a lower level, how about the gain structure of the pre? Also, the linearity of your convertor, the quantisation error and dithering will all be bigger relatively to your total signal?

So, if you're mixing digital, you're better off tracking hot. (The VS1880 has got a virtual input gain for the mixer, so your fader level is still workable.)
And for mixing analog. Well. No idea... I'm not really familiar with the technical background behind gain structure. But my best guess would be to get the hottest possible signal in the cable. Which obviously is not always true... So I pass on this one.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally posted by psmith66
Bruce,

Is it fair to assume that one can afford to track at something less than the hottest level for certain tracks (ie that you don't plan on bringing to the front of the final mix) in the digital domain considering inherent noise is typically less than what you'd expect in an analog tape environment? In other words, in a digital environment, can't you expect to "get away with" a lesser S/N than you'd require via tape - without a negligable degradation to the final overall mix? Isn't digital recording inherently less noisy, all other things constant, than analog tape?

Exactly... and assuming decent A/D converters to begin with, you can worry a lot less about hotter levels when recording at a higher word size (20/24-bit) than lower, since digital resolution is not as limited in the higher bit/word systems.

Bruce

[Henri Devill]

Bruce, I'm still in the stoneage {16 bit} so I've always tracked as close to zero as possible .The resolution seems to be better that way .
This is not{as} true on the higher bit rates?Or does it still apply to things with a faster transient responce...percusion like tamborine shaker...and things of that nature ?

Don

[Blue Bear Sound]

I'm not necessarily advocating one over the other (hotter vs not as hot) - I was simply presenting an alternate methodology to setting recording levels.

I have a tough time NOT recording as hot as possible myself, because of starting in the analog realm!

Bruce

[Slackmaster2K]

In the digital domain, the only real noise floor that you need be concerned with is the noise of your recording environment and equipment. In other words, the noise floor of a decent soundcard or digital recorder should be low enough that you're simply not going to be concerned about it. However, your equipment and environment will introduce plenty of noise. For me it's usually around -50 to -60db if I isolate my microphones, and -40db if I try to record near the computer.

While digital might offer a bit more room to work in, it's still important to record fairly hot. However, there's no reason to be overly concerned. If you try to push your signal into the -2 to 0db range, then chances are you're either going to clip, which is VERY nasty, or record too low. That is, you'll scream into the microphone and set your levels such they peak at -2, then you'll actually start tracking at which point you're singing at normal levels and suddenly your track is way down in the yellow. Or you'll sing into the mic at normal volumes and set your levels so that they peak at -2, then during the performance you'll get carried away and clip. This is of course where practice & compressors/limiters would help out...but we're talking about newbies with limited recording skills and budgets, like me, right?

I say that when recording things like vocals digitally, you can set your levels so that they peak at -6db or so and you'll wind up with a fine track. If you're recording yourself, like many of us, this is really the best option. Yes, you lose at least one bit of resolution, which is somewhat important, but it's not that big of a deal compared to a clip. If you're recording direct sources, like the POD, you can come a lot closer to the -0db mark without clipping, plus you can track right in front of the computer or recorder.

At anything lower than -6db, you're only using 23 bits of resolution on your 24 bit converters. Is that important? Well, consider that the decible scale is exponential. This means that in decimal, you're using 8,388,608 values of a possible 16,777,216 values (24bit) to describe the range between -6 and 0db. That's half of your resolution. Interesting, no?

But can you HEAR the difference? I dunno. But I tell you what I *can* hear, digital clipping! I would say that if you're tracking yourself alone, you should be more cautious than ambitious with your levels. Over time it will come easier no doubt. Instruments like electric guitars are pretty steady and you can keep them in the red. A compressor can help you keep your levels consistant on other instruments, if you have one.

Random blabbing,

Slackmaster 2000

[psmith66]

Not at all. Quite useful info to many hobbyists I suspect.

[tubedude]

I'm too busy to argue, and I'm trying to word the next tip-o-the-day, so... I stand firm... track hot, at least pretty hot, and use a compressor if necc. The thing with newbie setups is that they are ususally using a 16 bit crappy soundcard. Getting a hot signal over the noise of a $30 mic, a Behringer mixer, 400 ft cables and a cheap soundcard can be pretty important.
Hugs
Paul

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally posted by tubedude
The thing with newbie setups is that they are ususally using a 16 bit crappy soundcard. Getting a hot signal over the noise of a $30 mic, a Behringer mixer, 400 ft cables and a cheap soundcard can be pretty important.

Heh-heh... good point!

Bruce

[Slackmaster2K]

tubedude, I hope you didn't think that I was arguing with you. On the contrary, I was simply adding my take to the discussion. I agree that tracking as hot as possible is important, but where we draw that "as possible" line is relatively subjective and depends on the ability of the tracker, his situation, and his equipment.

I know that I often run into problems with clipping because I try to get my signals too hot...so lately I've been tracking more in the yellow (-10 to -6db), peaking in the mid-red (around -3db).

Slackmaster 2000

[SPINSTERWUN]

Wonderful information, tubedude, Bruce, and Slack2K.

Slack2K, I didn't know that the decibel range was exponential.

So, the one "bit" rate = a lot of information.

Thanks

spin

[eclips1]

Remember, its not just the output level going to the recorder that needs to be hot without clipping. Make sure you don't distort anywhere along your signal path.

I am fairly a newbie, and I say this because I discovered not to long ago that while my levels into my recorder where hot, but not distorting, I was clipping with my pre-amp.

[zip]

Originally posted by tubedude
The thing with newbie setups is that they are ususally using a 16 bit crappy soundcard. Getting a hot signal over the noise of a $30 mic, a Behringer mixer, 400 ft cables and a cheap soundcard can be pretty important.

OK...but what about a newbie with a 16 bit crappy soundcard (soon to be replaced...hopefully) and a $500 LD condenser?? Is it still as important to track hot??

I'm hoping my initial $750 investment (W/ pre) will reduce some noise when recording directly to that shitty little soundcard...please tell me it's so....

zip >>

[Slackmaster2K]

It's MORE important that you track hot with your "crappy" soundcard.

And no, buying a $500 LD and a good preamp are not going to give you very good results with a poor soundcard. You'll see the moment you upgrade to something nicer...it's like getting the water out of your ears...

Slackmaster 2000

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally posted by sonusman
Hey Bruce, when you dump that wannabe console and get something for real, you will have a OP Amp trim on the Tape Returns, who's purpose is to allow you to set your faders at Unity and adjust the Trim to balance. Works VERY well on Soundcrafts, DDA's, Tridents, Neve's, SSL's...........Mackie didn't include it on their mixers. Interesting eh?

I've never maintained that Mackie created the be-all and end-all to "budget" project studio consoles.
There are some "annoyances" I've come to discover after using it that I certainly have to live with for the time being (trims on the Tape Returns being one of them), split AUXes on each channel (there are 6 AUXes, but you can only use 4 at a time per channel), op amps not able to be pushed, and bizarro connections (the 2-Track and External inputs - +4dbu, but unbalanced (???) so you lose 7db by connecting a unit such as the Masterlink, forcing electrical unbalancing)....

All are annoyances which I can work around but, yeah, I do know what to look for next time I upgrade!

Bruce

[zip]

I understand I will not get good results with my current card....which is why I am replacing it (thinking about a Digi 001 w/ Protools and MOTU breakout box...good choice for the $$ or no??).

I was trying to say I hoped my good mic/pre would eliminate the noise mentioned above about CHEAP mics w/ a cheap mixer....

So yes...my set-up is not ideal but I have to take one step at a time... As a vocalist my pride demanded the good mic first...

Next decision for me...

1) GOOD computer soundcard w/ b/o box

OR

2) One of those 2 to 3 grand digital all-in-one units I can dump to my PC for editing.... (eg. Roland)

Ed...when I grow up I want real toys too.....

zip >>

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally posted by Blue Bear Sound
...bizarro connections (the 2-Track and External inputs - +4dbu, but unbalanced (???) so you lose 7db by connecting a unit such as the Masterlink, forcing electrical unbalancing)....

Doh!!! I said 7db, but actually meant 6!!!

Bruce

(ok, so sue me... I like being accurate!!)

[darrin_h2000]

You owe us six days now. Did you go on vacation or something?

[zoetrope]

I assume future installments will be in this thread, right? Or have you all moved on to another party and I'm left here with the empty beer bottles and cigarette butts.
Please, say it ain't so.

[zip]

Tube Dude....Hello Tube Dude...you out there??

Flight Command - this is zip - I think we have a problem.....

.......

zip >>

[PeteAnon]

For the "track hot" side of the bleachers...Do you recommend tracking with compression to get a hotter signal and prevent clipping?

I've been tracking a little less hot to a digital multitracker, and then later, boosting up the volume and applying compression where necessary in my PC to squash the clips.

Is it worth buying a standalone compressor for tracking (vs. what I just described?) I've read that somepeople advise tracking with no compression...

Pete

[psmith66]

Everything I've read suggests not to compress unless you have a requirement to compress (eg vocalist who whispers and screams at various times during the same track, drummers and bass players who fall asleep and wake up at various times during a tracking, etc). I personally stay away from it since I don't fully understand it - other than to control "stray" peaks in the mix during an otherwise acceptable take. I'm not talking about compression during mastering, but rather mixing. Application of compression during mastering is (I think) a whole different ball game.

My approach is to ATTEMPT to track and set levels so as to render compression unnecessary during mixdown. However, despite my limited knowledge/experience I have learned enough to know this is fairly unrealistic.

Tracking alone, I find it very difficult to set the proper levels. I'll try and hit a note which I think will illicit the maximum level, and then during actual recording I glance at the VU's and it's on fire. Anyone know of a mouth-controlled mouse?