Backup vocals question.

JerryD · #1 06-29-2001

Hi all,

Since my band consists of me, myself and I, I have to
do my own backup vocals. Well actually myself is out of the
band but he doesn't know it yet.

The problem is doing your own backup vocals sucks. It doesn't sound right. The lead track and backup tracks are so close it sounds more like an effect than a backup part.

Do I need to Harmonize?

Do I need an effect to change something on the backup track
to make it sound different?

What does everyone else do to make your backup vocals sound different from the lead vocals when you are doing both parts?

HearClear · #2 06-29-2001

Well if you were going to sing in unison with yourself it will sound like an effect. And even more so the better you match yourself.
Your best bet is to take some music theary and learn about intervals. Unless you can be creative with voice leading, you'll probably go with the good old parralel 5ths. Then experiment with panning the vocal tracks and using slighty different reverb on each track of vocals.
i suck at spelling.
Adam

Cyrokk · #3 06-29-2001

Learning about intervals is fine and dandy.. but that doesn't necessarily tell you what intervals are going to be best for the song you are recording.. and no one strictly uses absolute fifths unless they are singing gregorian chants or similar pieces..

if you have a piano, guitar, or other multi-toned instrument handy, you may try playing each note of the main vocal and matching various pitches to see what works best for backing the melody.. yeah it's trial and error.. but writing harmony is sometimes as laborious as writing melody...

if you don't have a piano or guitar, you may then be stuck with just practicing against the recorded vocal.. eventually you'll get a combination of harmonics that will do the trick... in VERY general terms, the interval spaces between the harmony and melody are commonly small: major seconds and major or minor thirds, and combinations thereof.. especially when the areas of harmonization are brief, like parts of a chorus or a couple of notes here and there..

as for recording effects.. I tend to keep the backing tracks pretty dry: little to no reverb.. my reasoning is that you really want the backing to support the main vocals.. plus more reverb tends to make things sound a bit sloppy... you can however delay the timing of the backing a few milliseconds for separation.. Warning: I'm not really an expert on recording backing vocals.. this just seems to work for me.. If better advice comes along.. take that instead...

Cy

sjoko2 · #4 06-30-2001

Hey Jerry - might I suggest just listening closely to what others are doing? take tracks apart, ince you concentrate its very easy.

One thing I often do is apply EQ to a stereo group of backing vocals.

Also, experiment with writing different arrangements for you backing vocals.

Perhaps listen to some of my partners demo's http://www.mp3.com/uru
she does all her backing vocals herself

Dolemite · #5 06-30-2001

Can I ask how you're using that word?

I.E. should we all be jealous of you?

sjoko2 · #6 06-30-2001

If you're inclined to bouts of jealousy, it should be 'coz I get to work with someone so talented, Mr. Google

MrLip · #7 06-30-2001

If you're not happy with unison then you probably need harmony. You don't need to know theory to sing harmony but you do need a decent ear. What I used to do when I first started trying to sing harmony was to work out the harmony line on my guitar (pretend you are writing a harmonized solo) first and based on that learn to sing it. I think keyboard/piano is even easier for this. If you're having trouble finding the 'starting' notes, just find which note the main melody lies on and use one of the other notes in the chord to start your harmony. Or one thing that some ppl do is that the harmony and melody start as unison but then break off into two different parts (eg. one goes high, one goes low.) But this all depends on what works for the melody.

Or maybe you don't need a strict harmony but instead a backup vocal that consists of separate part that compliments the main melody.

This must be confusing. Sorry. I'm not very articulate these days.

HearClear · #8 07-01-2001

Mr. Lip is correct you don't need theory to sing harmony. However learning music theory is very beneficial to all musicians. And definitely if your a song writer recording all the parts yourself. That takes talent and you'll only understand how everything in music works together it's really neat! The coolest thing about music is that it always works that way, music theory just descibes it so you know.

crosstudio · #9 07-01-2001

i like to double record harmonic 3rds, 5ths, 7th, and octaves (low and high) if i can hit the notes. then i clone the tracks and autotune the clones. the 1rst and autotuned 1rst are hard panned L, and the 2nd and autouned 2nd are hard panned R. then i mix them in and out as i like them.

having the doubled parts harmonized essentially creates 4 voices per part which smooths the back vocals out.

dave62 · #10 07-02-2001

For harmony I would do this: find the "main" notes in the melody (as opposed to the quick passing in-between notes. Usually the beginning and ending notes of a phrase are the target notes). Whatever chord is being played on the guitar or piano during these main notes, you take the chord-note above and the chord-note below for harmony.

If the melody note is on G and you're playing a G chord, then the high-harmony would be a B and the low harmony would be an D (or you could do the D an octave higher so the melody is the lowest note). After you plot the main notes, you sort of connect the dots and fill in the "passing tones" that fall between.

For the mix- I put the lead (melody) close to, if not right in the center. Then one harmony part I pan right, the other left. I then apply some eq to both harmony parts to disguise the fact that they are all the same guy. Make one a little more mellow and the other a little more crisp. I put the volumes for the backup vocals lower than the lead.

JuSumPilgrim · #11 07-02-2001

Sjoko,

Great singer.

I assume it was intentional, but their seemed to be a tad too much high coloration in the vocal reverb on the sibilances and breathing. ... overall the song was well done. What mic/pre are you using?

dcwave · #12 07-03-2001

www.mp3.com/robertjansen

sjoko2 · #13 07-03-2001

JuSum - they are just demo's recorded at home, I mean at home, not in a home studio. We're starting the real stuff next month.
Did use a good mike and pre, through a Lucid 2496 straight into Pro Tools

regebro · #14 07-03-2001

If you are using tape, changing the speed slightly will make you sound less yourself.

JuSumPilgrim · #15 07-03-2001

I hear you, Sjoko. Good luck with that.

Dcwave, theres no mid or low end in your "rock star" mix. What are you monitoring with?
Solid performance though, appropriate and tasteful all the way around. I would make the drums electronic though, more dynamic, a snare that cuts through the mix, a bass drum with a nice punchy top end, prominent hi hats, maybe change up the drum sounds in the bridges and stuff to give it energy. Vocals are well done but too thin, I would give the whole mix 3 db at 1200 and maybe 3-6 db at 350. Probably more in other places too. Good work.

old guy · #16 07-03-2001

A couple of suggestions & questions:
Do you have an assortment of mics, or just one?
If you have more than one, which is always a good idea of course, try not only using a different mic, but entirely different parameters with regards to your EQ'ing.
As for harmonies, like others have already stated, the standard, up a third, up a fifth works, but don't be afraid to experiment. Not that I'm an avid fan of his, but give a listen to Prince (or whatever he calls himself now). He tends to use a lot of inverted 6ths.
Experiment...whatever works for you, is what's important, there's no right way or wrong way...just different ideas...just my thots!!!

dcwave · #17 07-04-2001

Not my work. Just a friend of mine who is very good ( IMO ) at putting backing vocals together. Not sure what he monitors through but I know he uses Cakewalk 9 to track and compose with. I also know that these are "pre-mastered" as he is releasing a full cd that will be mastered. I'm sure that will bring up some more punchiness and eq adjustments.

Take a listen to "I'm Free" and some others on his site as well.

Quote:

Originally posted by JuSumPilgrim
I hear you, Sjoko. Good luck with that.

Dcwave, theres no mid or low end in your "rock star" mix. What are you monitoring with?
Solid performance though, appropriate and tasteful all the way around. I would make the drums electronic though, more dynamic, a snare that cuts through the mix, a bass drum with a nice punchy top end, prominent hi hats, maybe change up the drum sounds in the bridges and stuff to give it energy. Vocals are well done but too thin, I would give the whole mix 3 db at 1200 and maybe 3-6 db at 350. Probably more in other places too. Good work.

lbjmusic · #18 07-04-2001

Hi Jerry,

Do you have a song that I/we could listen to to make suggestions?

For my vocals, I always double-track the lead vocals, and "hide" the secondary track so it's barely audible, but loud enough to thicken the sound.

Harmonies are recorded the same way, only the doubled tracks are much louder. Each song has 3 part harmonies that are doubled or tripled to really give it a thick lush sound. If this sounds extreme, Enya "doubles" her harmonies about 500 times.

To find a harmony, play the root note on a guitar/keyboard, and play the successive notes to that particular chord. Pick the second note that you would like to use. There are NO rules when picking the harmony note - only that it is on key when sung.

Singing the harmony takes practice, practice, and more practice. Try singing along to your favourite music, and sing the harmony lines. Make 'em up if you have to.

Good luck!

Thank you DC Wave for the reference.

JuSumPilgrim,

Quote:

Dcwave, theres no mid or low end in your "rock star" mix. What are you monitoring with?
Solid performance though, appropriate and tasteful all the way around. I would make the drums electronic though, more dynamic, a snare that cuts through the mix, a bass drum with a nice punchy top end, prominent hi hats, maybe change up the drum sounds in the bridges and stuff to give it energy. Vocals are well done but too thin, I would give the whole mix 3 db at 1200 and maybe 3-6 db at 350. Probably more in other places too. Good work.

Thanks for listening, and for the "suggestions". I monitor with Sony MDR900 Headphones and Paradigm Titan speakers. I reference on a similar system which includes a 12" sub. Also reference in the car and anything that can play a CD.

The drums that you hear are obviously and quite intentionally drum loops.

Vocals are somewhat thin, as is my natural singing voice. Didn't want to mix it in a way that wasn't true. There's 16 tracks playing during the chorus to create an arena-style effect. Still thin, but the point gets across.

The (humble) home studio masters were "fixed up" at SharkFin Digital Mastering (Alanis, etc.) and the end result is much more punchy, and solid. Low end has been boosted and creates a nice chest-thump.

You seem to know your stuff. Do you have any recordings available for reference? I'd like to hear them.

Take care!

Robert

toad_uk · #19 07-05-2001

Use EQ to make the backing vocals sound thinner. Don't monitor your other vocals while recording your vocals (if you see what I mean) this will tend to make the phrasing of each take slightly different. Recording the vocals at different speeds will also help you come up with harmonies. Don't think of this as cheating, all the greats (including myself of course .

) have done it.

Lenny Kravitz does a lot of his own backing vocals and he sounds fine (in my opinion).

JerryD · #20 07-05-2001

THere is a ton of information here. Let me read it and see if I can put all of this to use.

Thanks again. This all helps a lot.