Is There A Point?

[justinm.]

I've always loved making songs, even when I was a kid and couldn't play a single instrument. Do you think there is a point buying equipment, recording & mixing your songs and making an album, if you are not even able to play live? It's not like I can make anything radio friendly, and even if I did, who would hear it?

I don't really have the best gear or anything, but after making songs and trying to record them on my own the best I can, researching studios for mastering, if I actually completed a CD, I feel like all that I'd end up with is 499 copies of an album nobody wants.

[Seafroggys]

I am EXACTLY in your boat.

I have composed, written, produced, engineered, and played on a rock opera (its in my signature). I hired a bunch of session musicians to fill out the other instruments. I spend thousands on it. Get a run of 1000 CD's.

I have sold 8 in 5 weeks.

It sucks, because like you, I can't perform this live. The music is extremely difficult as it is, and these were all random musicians/singers from around town, many of them I am unable to get in contact anymore and most of them are busy with their own stuff.

I can't perform it solo either, since although I can play piano, my piano skills are nowhere near good enough to actually play these parts, and on top of that I can't sing. Can't play guitar. And drums and bass don't make good solo instruments.

It sucks, but you gotta deal with it. I was thinking getting in contact with my pianist, who can sing (although she didn't on this CD), and maybe working out a deal where we do a couple of open mics a week, do like a short 10 minute version of my opera, and push the CD sales, and I'll offer her like free drum lessons or something in exchange, or free use of my recording equipment, or whatever.

[VomitHatSteve]

The point may be that it's fun, and you enjoy creating music.

Though it can be disheartening if no one seems to be actually listening to it.

I think you really have to try hard to play live. Expect that you'll be doing scaled down versions with fewer instruments than you really want, crappier musicians than you want, and less time on stage than you want. But you'll be getting your name out there, and you'll probably pick up a few new fans.

It's also probably a good idea to assume that you're going to lose money on your music hobby. I think you really have to adopt a "you did your best, and that's all that counts" attitude to stay sane if you're serious about your music.

And SeaFroggy's, I'd be happy to play live, but you'll have to come out to Iowa.

[dintymoore]

Making CD's in September of 2009 is a waste of money unless you're doing gigs to sell them at.

I have all but stopped recording for two years or so, and am playing live, which I always have loved. That world of recording and selling records is gone, even for most at the top.

We are coming up to a major change in society where most of the rules will be thrown out or changed, so I wouldn't worry about it much, as there's nothing you can do about it, and it's hard to imagine things will be as bad as they've been, so I'm optimistic.

For you why not put them on iTunes and maybe run an ad in Craigslist or visit a local junior college and offer people making films the use of your stuff as long as you get credited?

It's time to think outside of the box, because inside doesn't work anymore.

In the end, it's like a contest: the chances are slim if you enter but if you don't they are zero, so you might as well try.

[Dogbreath]

Originally Posted by dintymoore

Making CD's in September of 2009 is a waste of money unless you're doing gigs to sell them at.

Dats cool...just wait til October and yer good.

[Seafroggys]

Originally Posted by dintymoore

Making CD's in September of 2009 is a waste of money unless you're doing gigs to sell them at.

This is the only business model that works for me though.

With the way music is going (according to everyone) it will implode on itself. It cannot sustain itself. If nobody this generation will make any money from music, no one will want to invest thousands of dollars into learning it (and getting good sounding gear) if they get no return from it, thus next generation you'll have a bunch of indie hacks (who are the general population that says free music is the "next wave") who make shitty music that only 5 people will want to hear.

Fuck that.

While I do want to see the big 4 dissolve, I think what we had going several decades ago, with large "independent" labels like Atlanta and others that would sign on quality artists, creating good music that people will pay for...the current trend is not good for the music itself.

For people like me, a composer who wants to make epic rock music without assembling a band, while I do have to promote it (obviously) I don't think doing shows should be the only answer.

It all goes down to educating music fans.

And let me rephrase myself.

It sucks, because like you, I can't perform this live. The music is extremely difficult as it is, and these were all random musicians/singers from around town and Iowa , many of them I am unable to get in contact anymore and most of them are busy with their own stuff.

[darrin_h2000]

Cool...Iowa...Im in Kansas.

Anyhow I have had a few things make movie soundtracks in movies that have lost money...so I cant say that my music has made any money yet...but on the other hand Ive had a client sell over 100,000 units on the internet and she is in contract with me for $1 a unit (It has paid off my house)...that is where alot of my money comes from and it keeps the doors open...the ammount that I make with bands...Karaoke vocalists and others with checkbooks isnt all that much.

You have to have real talent to sell your own recordings...so find people who are really good and have a following...record them for free and make a deal like mine...I have a few artists with projects and connections with a venue owner in KC that will be using one of them next summer to warm up shows...if things pan out it will have a big return.

They are kinda like Rush type power trio...cept the guitar parts are played on violin by a guy with fast fingers...and the promoter loves them.

[Greg_L]

I'm the same way. My music is not radio friendly, and frankly, I'm glad for that. I have no illusions of selling many copies of my album, but I'm gonna try. I expect I'll be giving quite a few away. I'm gonna focus on the MP3 player realm though. No one sits and listens to albums anymore. CD's float around cars never to see their case again. It's super easy to get your stuff onto itunes, amazon, napster, etc. You're not gonna make shit off of your music anyway, so you might as well just do what you can.

I'm making a very small run of physical CD's with cover art and all that shit to give to friends and for the odd weirdo that actually still wants a hardcopy. And I play live, usually to pretty good sized crowds, so I may be able to sell a few at shows.

[Dogbreath]

"and for the odd weirdo that actually still wants a hardcopy."

Hey! I'm one of those weirdos.


Actually I planned on gettin one of your CDs when it's done anyway and then I heard that you were giving the proceeds to the March of Dimes.

That's pretty cool. Gergs just a big teddy bear after all.

[Greg_L]

Lol. Yup. All of the proceeds will go to the March of Dimes. I aint making a cent.

Dogbreath, you're a swell guy.

[obsidian3d]

You may want to look into Amazon. At least as of last year, they had a 'print to order' solution for CD sales. A friend of mine produced two albums that way and I was able to order them both from the website. No need to get 500 pressed copies made that will likely never sell.

[fat_fleet]

Originally Posted by justinm.

Do you think there is a point buying equipment, recording & mixing your songs and making an album, if you are not even able to play live?

Originally Posted by justinm.

I've always loved making songs

it's kinda like you answered your own question there.

[justinm.]

Well, I still listen to albums, but then again...I am one of those few people who listen to Indie music and therefore am probably an Indie hack as well. But besides my music sounding like complete shit (I've owned only 1 mic for 10years), I would not feel happy taking credit for any of the new popular music I'm hearing.

I honestly love making songs and I don't expect to make any real money, but it's quite disenchanting to make music for years that no one is listening to. Should I just sell off what little gear I have? I guess it is getting to the point that I need some incentive to continue. I suppose it's just getting harder and harder to watch musicians who only make music for little girls, receive vast amounts of success and recognition.

[darrin_h2000]

IDK...if you are asking about selling to make your studio pay you...or you want to try to sell your own material.

The best thing you can do is tell yourself to shit or get off the pot...if you want to do this and see some money coming in...you have to treat it as a buisness...if you dont think you have what it takes...sell it and put a hottub in that spot...or maybe a pool table...its your desision.

[suprstar]

Unless you just like sitting around in your studio fucking around with instruments, gear, fx, etc.. I'll grab me a drink and a smoke and just chill, dig up some cubase projects, mess with some tracks, whatever.. Play some guitar, make up some riffs, there's a ton of shit to experiment with. The kids come down and jump on the keys or drums, we all have fun. I'm not trying to get famous or rich. If it's enjoyable, then there is a point, just not a monetary one.. If you're only in it for the $$, then there may not be a point..

[Ricklh]

A lot of good points made in the thread already, especially the one about you have to treat it like a business. Having said that, however, the sad truth, IMO, is that the music market is extremely over-saturated...everybody & their second cousin has a MySpace page or their own page, whatever. So, nobody's on the same page anymore, musically-speaking, we're all doing our own thing and mostly on our own due to the inexpensive nature of home recording these days. So, the result of all this is there's almost as many "artists" these days as there are people, and everybody ain't gonna "make it", defined by most people as wide-scale popularity and making a living with their music. The realistic attitude to just keep doing the music thing as a hobby and keep getting better at that hobby. We've already got enough music to last a lifetime (witness "Classic Rock"), so the chances of someone making it big from their bedroom or living room studio, on their own, is slim to none. As much exposure as the internet gives someone, your chances of "making it" are probably still a whole lot better the old-fashioned way, which is being discovered by a record company executive and being signed to a contract with a major label. Even then, that's no guarantee of anything. As negative as all this sounds, I like to live by the "do what you love, the money will follow" adage/book title, even though I know the odds of that happening are astronomically long.

[fat_fleet]

^ probably a few a yez dig the sebadoh...
anyways, there's that part of their 1st album where it's some kid saying "i think everyone in the world should have their own band! yeah, and there should be this huge show where everyone in the world's band plays! aw, that'd be awesome!"
welp, it's getting there.
you just have to love doing it is all. it becomes it's own reward.

[dintymoore]

Originally Posted by fat_fleet

... you just have to love doing it is all. it becomes it's own reward.

That's really it.

Just because things are shitty right now doesn't mean that they will be a few years from now.

And if you work hard now you'll be that far ahead when things get cookin' again. That's the basis of my effort - prepare for what's comin' up because I sense there definitely is something coming up.

When Karl Benz (of Mercedes Benz) made what might be the first "regular" car in the late 1880's all the carriage makers thought it was the end of the world, and it's the same thing in music now, but this will all evolve into something we can't even imagine now. That's my gut feeling.

[darrin_h2000]

Originally Posted by suprstar

Unless you just like sitting around in your studio fucking around with instruments, gear, fx, etc.. I'll grab me a drink and a smoke and just chill, dig up some cubase projects, mess with some tracks, whatever.. Play some guitar, make up some riffs, there's a ton of shit to experiment with. The kids come down and jump on the keys or drums, we all have fun. I'm not trying to get famous or rich. If it's enjoyable, then there is a point, just not a monetary one.. If you're only in it for the $$, then there may not be a point..

Im in it for more than just the money...but the money is really good if you play your cards right...its been a few years since Ive had to have a day job...and it gives me more time on my hands to do my own projects...most of them film projects.

Im saying though that sooner or later your ideas will dry up and you will have old equipment gathering dust...and if you didnt invest well in mics and instruments it wont be worth anything if you try to sell it...if you record others and word of mouth gets out...you just might get a few more hundred coming in a month and be able to upgrade your stuff without taking food out of the kids mouth.

[Chili]

Warning, Thread Hijack!!!! from a mod, no less!!!

Originally Posted by darrin_h2000

..and it gives me more time on my hands to do my own projects...most of them film projects.

That's what I eventually want to be doing. Tell me what you've got going....

Okay, back to your normally scheduled topic. Thank you.

[justinm.]

I'm not in it just for the money. I can't be since I don't make any. But above someone mentioned they have only sold 8 copies of their CD, and while that's nothing to everyone I'm sure, I would actually be amazed and even a bit satisfied if I made something and it was purchased, not just by friends or family...even if it's only 8 copies. I wasn't saying that I expect to be rich or make it big. If I was on the smallest record label in the world, that'd be great.

But even that seems impossible. I really wonder if I went to all the trouble of recording something decent, if I would just end up feeling frustrated. After all, why record something if there is no chance of anyone hearing it?

[dintymoore]

Originally Posted by justinm.

I'm not in it just for the money. I can't be since I don't make any. But above someone mentioned they have only sold 8 copies of their CD, and while that's nothing to everyone I'm sure, I would actually be amazed and even a bit satisfied if I made something and it was purchased, not just by friends or family...even if it's only 8 copies. I wasn't saying that I expect to be rich or make it big. If I was on the smallest record label in the world, that'd be great.

But even that seems impossible. I really wonder if I went to all the trouble of recording something decent, if I would just end up feeling frustrated. After all, why record something if there is no chance of anyone hearing it?

A few thoughts:

There's no reason you should think that no one will hear your music. You can put it on YouTube, iTunes, here etc... there's a zillion opportunities for you to get your music heard, many free.

You don't need CD's to get your music heard. You need CD's if you have a gig where you can sell them or some other event/situation where you can sell them. Just making CD's and thinking you can sell them at a local store and mail order or something is not happening. People will buy them at gigs because it's a souvenir of the event.

Maybe the reason to do it is to develop your craft?

Most musicians I know are somewhat obsessed with music and would do it no matter what, kinda like a heroin addict if you don't mind that comparison.

Maybe people will like it (what a concept)!

[gecko zzed]

Whether you are pleased or disappointed with your recording efforts depends on why you went through the process in the first place.

There are many reasons why people record; sometimes to seek public acclaim or commercial succes, sometimes because it is just fun to do.

My performing days are over, as are my aspirations to stardom . . . but I still enjoy music immensely, specially recording it. The act of recording is its own reward.

[Seafroggys]

Originally Posted by dintymoore

A few thoughts:

There's no reason you should think that no one will hear your music. You can put it on YouTube, iTunes, here etc... there's a zillion opportunities for you to get your music heard, many free.

You don't need CD's to get your music heard. You need CD's if you have a gig where you can sell them or some other event/situation where you can sell them. Just making CD's and thinking you can sell them at a local store and mail order or something is not happening. People will buy them at gigs because it's a souvenir of the event.

Maybe the reason to do it is to develop your craft?

See, the thing is is I am beyond this stage. Developing my craft? I've been developing it for 17 years. I've been composing music for 9 years (not writing words and banging out chords, but actual composition). I have performed to varying audiences with various styles of music, some were competitions, most were not. I have shown the world for many years many of my midi compositions. People around the world have heard me.

I felt it was time to finally put it all in and make a commercial product, as I felt I was ready. I was finishing up with business school, I was confident in myself, and I had the capital to put several thousand into hiring musicians. I wanted to finally be compensated for those 17 years of hard ass work.

The problem is my primary instrument are the drums. You never hear of drumming-songwriters...mainly because most drummers are incapable of making anything resembling a song, but also because they can't perform the song for anybody, either a listening public or bandmates. And I suck at singing too, which means its a matter of handing out sheet music (which requires years of training to learn as well) or in terms of sharing with the band, banging out the chord progression on the piano (since I do play piano, but not very well anymore).

*I* need CD's because of what I did write....a continuous rock opera. While people *can* rip the CD's into computer audio files, that is fine and that is their right. However, that is not the way I want people to listen to this. If they listened to it on shuffle, songs will abruptly start and stop (where the track begins and ends) and the progression of the story would make no sense. It was an artistic decision to have the physical CD. I may end up being forced to do digital downloads in order to break-even, but at the risk of artistic integrity.

So in this economy and in this industry, I literally have every card and chip turned against me. It is hard, and I'm figuring out new ways of marketing myself everyday. But it is still damn hard.

[dintymoore]

I hear what you're saying...

I'm a drummer too and have been doing this for a long time - since the 60's.

All I can say is that all the rules will probably be rewritten in the next few years and I have optimism that it will be better than now.

One option is to make a website of your own and put your songs on there as they will be the length and non-mp3 format you want.

I read once that you can judge a man's wealth not by what he has, but by what he gives away. So a problem comes up when you are trying to get the energy flow to come towards you.

I wouldn't give up, there's got to be a reason you're doing all of this. Sometimes it's best not to get too heavy into wondering why we do this because in the end you'll probably never know.

We are just in pre-paradigm mode so you can't judge things by how they are this week 'cause it won't be like this for long.