Do you use noise reduction when mixing down to 1/4" 15ips from tape based tracking?

[jedblue]

On the mixdown or master two track, not on playback of the source. Just interested to know what people do here.

G

[dodgeaspen]

I've tried no NR and NR. It depends on what I'm recording to warrant it. I use DBX 150's and love them.

[Rich Smith]

No, never have. Always wanted to keep Everything on the master.

Rich Smith

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by Rich Smith

No, never have. Always wanted to keep Everything on the master.

Rich Smith

The only thing good NR eliminates is additional tape hiss on what is being recorded. Are you saying you like tape hiss?

[vincedog3]

Noise Reduction is great assuming all other things being right. Bias/Equalization etc. DBX will amaze if those are right. Love DBX.

[lo.fi.love]

How about half-track, 1/4" stereo master, on SM900? Would this combination defeat the need for noise reduction? I'm curious to know.

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by lo.fi.love

How about half-track, 1/4" stereo master, on SM900? Would this combination defeat the need for noise reduction? I'm curious to know.

It would depend on the machine, its condition, and possibly who is running the mix. My ATR 102 doesn't need it but my Tascam 25-2 sounds better/quieter to me when dbx I is used.

[Rich Smith]

Originally Posted by RRuskin

The only thing good NR eliminates is additional tape hiss on what is being recorded. Are you saying you like tape hiss?

Rick,

I've never been comfortable with NR.... where someone else decided which frequencies constituted the tape hiss I hear and tried to remove it. When I was 20 my full range hearing tested to 22k. Even now, years later, I'm still never sure what other people can actually hear. So, I've always been gun shy about removing anything from a master.

It didn't used to be much of an issue when home studio Masters were copied to 3-3/4 ips RR or 1-7/8 ips cassette for playback. And people generally used some kind of home playback deck and amp with ample NR and EQ to suit their preferences.

Now, how and when to best deal with Tape Hiss probably still depends on how you're going to copy your Master..... and what playback equipment you expect others to listen through. I suppose most taped Masters will be copied to CD and there are many different ways to do that. But, once digital it can be transfered to any number of other cheezy devices for playback. I don't have answers for how to set things up best for all the digital playback possibilities. The copying/transfer setup is pobably more important now that it ever used to be.

I feel sorry for all the hearphone wearing people that need to playback through their PC at work; or some cheap MP3 or CD player on the bus. They usually don't have anything more than a volume control and "bass booster" if they're lucky.

Rich Smith

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by Rich Smith

Rick,

I've never been comfortable with NR.... where someone else decided which frequencies constituted the tape hiss I hear and tried to remove it. When I was 20 my full range hearing tested to 22k. Even now, years later, I'm still never sure what other people can actually hear. So, I've always been gun shy about removing anything from a master.

It didn't used to be much of an issue when home studio Masters were copied to 3-3/4 ips RR or 1-7/8 ips cassette for playback. And people generally used some kind of home playback deck and amp with ample NR and EQ to suit their preferences.

Now, how and when to best deal with Tape Hiss probably still depends on how you're going to copy your Master..... and what playback equipment you expect others to listen through. I suppose most taped Masters will be copied to CD and there are many different ways to do that. But, once digital it can be transfered to any number of other cheezy devices for playback. I don't have answers for how to set things up best for all the digital playback possibilities. The copying/transfer setup is pobably more important now that it ever used to be.

I feel sorry for all the hearphone wearing people that need to playback through their PC at work; or some cheap MP3 or CD player on the bus. They usually don't have anything more than a volume control and "bass booster" if they're lucky.

Rich Smith

We seem to be talking about 2 different things. I'm referring to "double-sided" encode decode NR used during the creation of a recording. You appear to talking about "after the fact NR." I agree that attempting to surgically remove tape hiss that is already in existence can often be a waste of time and quite destructive to the original material.

[fred s.]

I track with NR, but when I mix down to my Tascam 22-2, I don't use any NR...I don't mind a little hiss, I actually like it how it sounds-just a bit not too much.

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by fred s.

I track with NR, but when I mix down to my Tascam 22-2, I don't use any NR...I don't mind a little hiss, I actually like it how it sounds-just a bit not too much.

Different strokes; etc. I hate hiss.

[Beck]

It depends on the material. I usually master on 1/4" half-track @ 15 ips. Back in the day we used Dolby-A or mastered @ 30 ips. In my home studio I have Dolby-C and dbx Type-I (Model 150X). I prefer dbx for tracking and Dolby-C for composite music.

Since my home studio is all -10 dB line level I can use NR designed for home hi-fi. I use a Sony NR-500 Dolby-C unit and it works like a charm. I actually like Dolby-C better than Dolby-A. Type C was the forerunner to SR. A lot of the technology in Type-C made its way into SR.

I can also use single-ended NR when going from analog to digital. The Behringer SNR-202 works really well for that. It’s an old Behringer device, made in Germany, not to be confused with today’s Behringer.

I don't care for hiss either.

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by Beck

.............. I prefer dbx for tracking and Dolby-C for composite music...........

What is composite music?

[fred s.]

Originally Posted by RRuskin

Different strokes; etc. I hate hiss.

I guess I'm trying to go for the "vibe" of my favorite records which all had a small bit of hiss..

[Beck]

Originally Posted by RRuskin

What is composite music?

The composite (mixed) signal... the final mix or master, as opposed to individual tracks on your multitrack.

The reason I usually avoid dbx on the mix is because dbx is broadband... it's either all open or closed. So for example, if you have a section in a song where the material is all low frequency it still opens up the high frequencies as well, which is where tape hiss lives. This is where you can get some pumping and breathing artifacts because there is no high frequency material to mask it. You might hear this during a drum part when cymbals are momentarily stayed during a tom roll or something. A low growling synth part or bass solo can do it too.

dbx doesn’t have the same problem while tracking because you can roll off the highs on instruments with no upper harmonics in the tape hiss range. So I normally roll off the high EQ on kick, bass, toms, etc. because there's nothing up there anyway.

Dolby is a multiband system, so the high bands stay closed unless there is high frequency material present. That’s been my experience anyway… YMMV, depending on the type of music you’re recording.

~Tim

[rickb]

I don't use NR. Have dBx 150's but prefer to not use in mixdown from Tascam 38 to 22-2. I won't have to deal with in the future if the dBx's go down or don't decode properly. Kinda pure analog FWIW?? A matter of your expectations really. Many a recording tracked at 15ips and mixed to 15ips that no NR was utilized. It's really up to you. We are just home rcording enthusiatsts and enjoy the worthwhile hobby. Keep on tracking and mixing whatever you decide to do!

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by Beck

The composite (mixed) signal... the final mix or master, as opposed to individual tracks on your multitrack............

Ah. Your use of the terms "signal" and "music" interchangeably was the source of my confusion.

[Tim Gillett]

There's another good reason not mentioned why NR was often used at tracking but not on the mixdown tape.

At tracking, the raw dynamic range of individual instruments and voices can be pretty severe, and you need a format that can handle that without noise and distortion intruding, which in practice often meant double ended NR.

But when you do a mixdown, part of that is controlling excessive dynamics in the mixdown track so that the final track is easy to listen to and within reasonable dynamic bounds. Such a mixed down track usually puts much less demands on the mixdown format in terms of dynamic range.

Also, it was easier to exchange mixdown tapes and play them on different machines without the NR decoding errors you risk in that case.

Cheers Tim.