Entry level gear

[Phil_Qld]

Hi Guys,

I have read around here a bit and there is alot of new things for me to pickup.

I plan to record live gigs and some tracks at home from a 5 piece rock band.

Drums / Yamaha - damn huge oversize bass drum
Acoustic / 12" 200w Laney amp
Fender Strat guitar / Marshal 2x12 Tube
Musicman Bass / Ampeg SVT2Pro 8x10 cab
+Female Singer + backup vocals

now what I had planned to purchace was the following -

Allen & Heath ZED22 FX Mixer ( With usb )

Channel 1 + 2 SM58's for Vocal + Backup

Channel 3 + 4 SM57 and DI on the Guitar Cab

Channel 5 DI From the bass head / or is it better or DI from the pedal?? or both ?( Boss GT6b)

Channel 6 7 8 9 10 (drums????)

Channel 11 SM57 on the acoustic cabinet

I already own Cakewalk Sonar 8


Now a few Questions I have, I dont really know what to use for the Drums, from reading forums people say dont bother with the Sure PG kits, am I better of buying another couple of 57's and a couple of kick mics? what is a bargin set over overheads to use?

Also regarding the mixer is it possible to use this as the FOH Mixer (sliders for levels to FOH and use sonar to record the 11+ Tracks seperate without the adjusted FOH levels? IE turn snare right down on FOH but have it nominal level on the recording?) This is how I read it all works from the Allen and Heath site I just need confirmation before speding alot of cash.

I dont have a huge amount to spend on all of this gear im looking at going in under $3000 to start with and see what happens from there. I am not expecting studio quality albums, just something half decent sounding better than the zoom 1gb recrder we use now.

[Simbo]

Hello Phil

I am all new to this stuff too, but what were you planning on using as a audio interface.

I believe that mixer with USB will not do more then 2 tracks at once, if you were planning on just using the USB to record with

[Dogbreath]

" I dont really know what to use for the Drums, from reading forums people say dont bother with the Sure PG kits, am I better of buying another couple of 57's and a couple of kick mics? what is a bargin set over overheads to use? "

I'd think you'd get a good sound out of a D112 or Beta 52 on kick, a 57 or Audix I5 on snare and a pair of Studio Projects B1's for OH's. They go for about $100 a piece and do just fine. Try a google search of the Glyn Johns method or the Recorderman technique. Both of these methods key in on the overheads to capture the kit as a whole and both methods work great. Placement of the overheads is the big factor so take your time when setting them up to avoid phasing and funkiness etc.

As to the bass guitar, I generally just DI it but have had good results micing + DI and blending the 2. I use my kick mic when I'm tracking bass.

I don't know about your other questions so I'll leave that to the smart people.

Hope it helps man.
Kel

[Dogbreath]

Oh...and I believe SimboDude is right about the USB and 2 tracks thing. But I'm also a computer idiot so....

[gcapel]

Originally Posted by Simbo

Hello Phil

I am all new to this stuff too, but what were you planning on using as a audio interface.

I believe that mixer with USB will not do more then 2 tracks at once, if you were planning on just using the USB to record with

After a read on there web site the ZED-16R will track 18 channels at once (firewire) and also has 16 channels adat output. You can add a firewire card to a PC.

IT also has 18 firewire inputs for mixing through the board for post production. But to use this you would need a means to record the mix buss to another destination (cd burner, dat machine, seperate interface to the pc) unlesss it will let you use two of the firewire outputs for recording the mix buss.

But you can see the jump in price from the 22 channel board.

[gcapel]

Compairing to the mackie onyx firewire mixer. I would listen for who has the better sounding analog mix buss. I havn't heard the zed or the onyx. But I have heard the mackie vlz and a A&H mix wizard and the vlz is the clear winner. But for tracking the A&H mix wizard may have had the slightest better mic pre's. These are also things to consider.

[gcapel]

After reading the onyx stuff I found out that it will only let you bring back the main mix from the pc for monitoring unlike the zed-16r letting you bring back 18 channels for analog mixing.

Some people find that mixing in the computer software will result in a sterile less musical summing. And some people have no problems doing this.


And I myself and others find that analog mixing is the best of both worlds. Your able to have digital effects (software) and also have analog out board effects (channel inserts or aux). Plus the analog summing to my ears just sounds better and that will also be determined on what peice of analog summing gear you are using.

[Phil_Qld]

Thanks for the replies guys, so is there any cost effective way of recording 12 channels at once direct to PC that is incorperated with a mixer?? firewire or usb is fine

This was kind of the end solution I was after as it makes the whole setup ultra portable - the ZED 16 R looks pretty sweet exept $3000 seems a bit steep for what I Want to use it for

The Roland unit below - http://www.rolandus.com/products/pro...0&ParentId=114

Is actually cheaper than the allan and heath and it says it can stream 16 channels at once via USB ( but there is only 4 XLR inputs )

gah! this is doing my head in already :P

I guess the other option is to use a HDD Recorder somewhere in the mix but I not sure how this would hook into the PA System for live recording if I wanted seperate tracks and not just the stereo AUX sends

[Phil_Qld]

OK I finally found something that I am after

PreSonus StudioLive 16.4.2

does anyone have any opinions on this unit?

[dodgeaspen]

Phil_Qld you want to buy my Behringer 4 channel compressor. It has seen little use. Sorry but I don't know anything about recording digital.

[Phil_Qld]

no thanks not really into behringer gear, but thanks anyway

[gcapel]

Originally Posted by Phil_Qld

OK I finally found something that I am after

PreSonus StudioLive 16.4.2

does anyone have any opinions on this unit?

Its got alot of bells and whistles and is going to do what you want to do. The main beef I have with it is that each channel is converted to digital before mixing (digital summing). Is this going to be much different than mixing in a pc? At least you will have actual faders and knobs to the touch.

Check out the routing diagram: http://www.presonus.com/media/diagra...iagram-web.pdf

Do a search on analog summing and see what you come up with.

[Simbo]

Correct me if i'm wrong

But couldn't Phil use a A+H zed24 or the zed22fx and 2 presonus 10-10's daisy chained via firewire, to record up to 16 tracks.

With this, i THINK you could just run from the inserts of each channel to the presonus in's. just need to make sure it's ok to run from insert to inputs?

Would that give him the ability to control the tracks recorded via PC(from inserts to inputs on presonus) and FOH control via the mixer.

This would be around $1,600 plus cables

[Phil_Qld]

Originally Posted by Simbo

Correct me if i'm wrong

But couldn't Phil use a A+H zed24 or the zed22fx and 2 presonus 10-10's daisy chained via firewire, to record up to 16 tracks.

With this, i THINK you could just run from the inserts of each channel to the presonus in's. just need to make sure it's ok to run from insert to inputs?

Would that give him the ability to control the tracks recorded via PC(from inserts to inputs on presonus) and FOH control via the mixer.

This would be around $1,600 plus cables

as far as I know the allen and heath units only have usb?

seems strange that hardly anyone would develop a unit that can have 16 inputs that can record via firewire - I belive Fostex also make a unit that does this for around the same price as the studiolive but its around the same price with half the features

I would also be open to a HDD recorder as long as it could handle all the inputs, but the most I have seen is 8 on units like the boss 1600CD

[gcapel]

Originally Posted by Simbo

Correct me if i'm wrong

But couldn't Phil use a A+H zed24 or the zed22fx and 2 presonus 10-10's daisy chained via firewire, to record up to 16 tracks.

With this, i THINK you could just run from the inserts of each channel to the presonus in's. just need to make sure it's ok to run from insert to inputs?

Would that give him the ability to control the tracks recorded via PC(from inserts to inputs on presonus) and FOH control via the mixer.

This would be around $1,600 plus cables

Yes, you could use the analog direct outs from the A&H and feed the two Presonus FP10's to get your a/d conversion for 16 channels.

The FP10 does not provide d/a conversion for post production analog mixing.

This is the same situation with the mackie 1640 onyx, but it's all in one peice (with addition to the firewire card). I would go for the mackie instead if i had to choose. Later you could buy some d/a conversion, but you would have to "mix in the box" with the mackie alone.

[Simbo]

OK gc i give, as a newbie what do you mean by post production analog mixiing,

I am looking for the same thing Phil is looking for, grap channels for A/D for recording, plus still have the ablity to mix live

Help me understand

[hardwire666]

USB will only handle 2 channels of audio at a time. So far as i know. I did read some where that is can do more, but it starts having issues because of the limits of USB. I think you may be able to use fireware, but i have no experience with this. For the amount of channels you want I can guarantee you need something I have never heard of, and know little about.

I did however find this from tweakheads. It's a comparison table of fire-wire audio interfaces. Dunno how much help it will be, but i figured it couldn't hurt.

http://www.tweakheadz.com/audio_inte...ison_chart.htm

[Phil_Qld]

I found something perfect that fits into my budget and has alot of features .. 16 channel simultanios firewaire recording - digital effects ect, im unsure about the preamps but i have not seen anythign bad about them ont the net

Phonic Helix 24 Mkii