Help me convert to rack affects!!!!!!!

[JIMBOdrummer]

Im not new to recording but i've never used rack mount affects. My only knowledge is from Reason software

i need to know everything lol.
Things such as:

What is the purpose of a patch bay?

do you simply plug into the first module, connect the rest (end to end) to one and other, then output to the computer and bypass what you don't need?

what is a "TUBE" preamp?

ETC ETC Im starting from scratch so i'll take any suggestions

[dodgeaspen]

Lots of things to learn. I'm still learning myself. A patch bay comes in handy so you don't have to rewire everything when making some changes.

[Massive Master]

1) A patch bay is for patching. You patch what you need where you need it.

2) See above - You patch what you need where you need it. Generally no, you're not going to just make a chain and bypass what you don't need. Unless you're only going to use one I/O and everything always in the same order...

3) A tube preamp is a preamp with tubes in it. Most of the "budget friendly" ones are complete junk that I wouldn't give to the competition (a.k.a. "TOOB" preamp). Most of the expensive ones aren't any better than the more expensive solid-state units. "Tube" has turned into a marketing buzz-word. Not that there aren't wonderful tube units out there (almost anything that says Manley on it). But there are far more completely worthless piles of crap that will get kicked to the curb with extreme prejudice by even modest solid-state units.

PS - I hope you have an idea of what it takes to have a collection of outboard that's worth having... Not that I'm not an analog nut (believe me, I am), but if you're going to go out and get a bunch of digital reverbs, there's no advantage. If you're going to use dynamics, you need some pretty wonderful processors to beat the digital processors in your DAW. Same with EQ. Plus (the even more substantially expensive part), you need quality conversion - Enough channels of it to equal your top requirement of simultaneous I/O - plus just the investment in cabling up... This is a substantial investment even on the ultra-cheap. And on the ultra-cheap, it's not worth it in the first place.

I'm not trying to discourage - I'm trying to point out that getting a patch bay, a bunch of *cheap* cables, a 8 or 16-channel AD/DA and even just a few incredibly cheap (and incredibly crappy) processors could easily (EASILY) run you a thousand bucks (or considerably more) and you'll *still* wind up with "crap" quality.

Just cabling my patch bay - and I used good quality cable and had them custom-made at cost (for a fraction of what it would've cost otherwise) cost me around $800. Just cable. You could use uber-cheap Hosa looms and probably cut that in half (keeping in mind that you're using uber-cheap Hosa looms - which sound decent enough, but can't take a tug). But that doesn't even include the bay (that's the cheap part) and certainly none of the gear hooked up to it, nor the AD/DA I/O feeding it.

[JIMBOdrummer]

The money isn't a problem. But I'm not looking to get much. What are the recommended rack mount modules. What "should" i have? I'm guessing i might not even need a patch bay if i have i don't have much effects.

[Massive Master]

Originally Posted by JIMBOdrummer

The money isn't a problem. But I'm not looking to get much. What are the recommended rack mount modules. What "should" i have? I'm guessing i might not even need a patch bay if i have i don't have much effects.

A) Money is *always* an issue. I could very easily put together something with a price tag of $50,000. Easily. And it wouldn't consist of "that much."

B) Only you know what you should have. If you need 32 channels of compression and EQ, you need 32 channels of compression and EQ. If you need 16 channels of compression, three reverbs and two modulators, that's what you need. If you need a half dozen channels of nice preamps, one stereo comp, two stereo EQ's and a verb with a really tasty plate, there you go.

What do you need and what is your budget?

[darrin_h2000]

Id reccomend a rack tray...but it would make them harder to step on.

Ive allways collected old vintage rack stuff...compressors...reverbs...eqs...mostly from the 70s.

Most stuff can be done using a plug in you can download from the net free...and some of the editing software is free too.

[SonicAlbert]

I find I use my outboard hardware reverb units quite a bit. Then outboard compressors, and after that but much less, outboard eq. I really do believe that hardware reverb is still the way to go, it just mixes better in my opinion. Compressors too, there's just a naturalness and mixability to the analog units. Some eqing tasks really need an outboard unit, but I think at this point you are looking for color or special tonal qualities in an outboard eq, as digital eq is very precise and clean now and can handle a lot more than it used to.

All this said, you really don't want to buy cheap outboard gear: it's just a waste of money. Look to spend around $1,500-2,000 *minimum* on every piece of processing gear you add to your studio.

If you are starting from scratch and will be recording acoustic instruments and voice, then you need to start with preamps and mics. So that's going to be about $1,500-2,000 for a two channel preamp and maybe about the same or more for a couple good mics. Don't get sucked in by the tube preamp thing, solid state preamps can be just as warm sounding.

You might take a look at the Neve Portico 5012 or John Hardy M-1 series dual mic preamps, for example.

[darrin_h2000]

Originally Posted by SonicAlbert

All this said, you really don't want to buy cheap outboard gear: it's just a waste of money. Look to spend around $1,500-2,000 *minimum* on every piece of processing gear you add to your studio.
.

I love to go to high end stereo shops where they sell used gear...I got mt dbx160 from one for $60...a 70s reverb unit $35...70s Aphex Aureal Exciter $50.

Garage sales...Phase Linear model 400 (What Alan Parsons uses) $20...2 Mogami Mic Cables $2...16 channel snake $30

Pawn shops...Pair Yamaha NS10s $70...7 SM57 mics $20 each...etc...

[drossfile]

Originally Posted by JIMBOdrummer

Im not new to recording but i've never used rack mount affects. My only knowledge is from Reason software

i need to know everything lol.
Things such as:

What is the purpose of a patch bay?

do you simply plug into the first module, connect the rest (end to end) to one and other, then output to the computer and bypass what you don't need?

what is a "TUBE" preamp?

ETC ETC Im starting from scratch so i'll take any suggestions

honestly, if you don't know what the purpose of something is, then you have no business buying it. don't buy stuff just because you have the money to. buy it because you know exactly what it will bring to the table. what do you NEED? that's the question. what are you dissatisfied with in your current studio?

answer that question, and then research the details of that answer. pay as you go, so to speak.

[JIMBOdrummer]

Originally Posted by drossfile

honestly, if you don't know what the purpose of something is, then you have no business buying it. don't buy stuff just because you have the money to. buy it because you know exactly what it will bring to the table. what do you NEED? that's the question. what are you dissatisfied with in your current studio?

answer that question, and then research the details of that answer. pay as you go, so to speak.

I don't know what a patch bay does because it is used in analog settings and my studio is all digital. And if i need certain component then i have all the business to get it and learn it.
Ok OK we need to clear something up. Im not starting recording from scratch i've been doing it for about 4 or 5 years.

Im on Logic Studio

through recording in studios I've realized that some things are just better analog. All i wanted to know was what components are worth the switch to outboard.

[SonicAlbert]

Originally Posted by JIMBOdrummer

All i wanted to know was what components are worth the switch to outboard.

Basically, only high quality components are worth the switch. For you I'll say again that if you are recording acoustic instruments and voice, the biggest improvement you could make would be with quality preamps and mics. Then after that, a good AD converter. That will be your biggest bang for the buck in my opinion.

If you want to mix outboard, then the list gets a lot longer.

[JIMBOdrummer]

i was thinking of getting a really nice pre for vox.

Im content mixing in logic for now.

so as of now on my list. is a nice pre and possibly a Reverb module. it's an effect i use allot and its one that i've realized can sound warmer if i have an outboard, dedicated unit.


Im not looking to TOTALY convert from digi to analog. There are just some things that aren't as good in a computer. In the end, this is all flowing into logic.

[gecko zzed]

Originally Posted by JIMBOdrummer

i was thinking of getting a really nice pre for vox.

Im content mixing in logic for now.

so as of now on my list. is a nice pre and possibly a Reverb module. it's an effect i use allot and its one that i've realized can sound warmer if i have an outboard, dedicated unit.


Im not looking to TOTALY convert from digi to analog. There are just some things that aren't as good in a computer. In the end, this is all flowing into logic.

At the levels of sophistication in recording we're talking about here, analog 'warmth' is an illusion. Save your money and stay in the box. Concentrate instead on your techniques and skills . . . that's where your warmth will come from.

[Ronan]

Originally Posted by Massive Master

but if you're going to go out and get a bunch of digital reverbs, there's no advantage.
.

I have yet to hear a high end plug in reverb that can beat an old Lexicon PCM90. I would much rather mix with one great reverb that a collection of lesser ones.

[darrin_h2000]

Dont you have a plate reverb?...I dont have the space...but I have the Tape-op with the blueprints...and its going under construction as soon as I can get the space...maybe under the pool table in the adjoining game room.

[JIMBOdrummer]

Originally Posted by gecko zzed

At the levels of sophistication in recording we're talking about here, analog 'warmth' is an illusion. Save your money and stay in the box. Concentrate instead on your techniques and skills . . . that's where your warmth will come from.

Do you really think so? I mean i def believe you. I have gotten great sounds from computer effects.

What is your opinion on the preamp. Some one told me that a midi module would b good but it sounds stupid to me cuz the files on the modules are essentially the same as on my comp.

[Massive Master]

Originally Posted by Ronan

I have yet to hear a high end plug in reverb that can beat an old Lexicon PCM90. I would much rather mix with one great reverb that a collection of lesser ones.

I'll give you that - I'm assuming he isn't looking into such hardware though.

[snow lizard]

Originally Posted by JIMBOdrummer

Some one told me that a midi module would b good but it sounds stupid to me cuz the files on the modules are essentially the same as on my comp.

Whoever told you that a midi module makes a good preamp probably has no clue what a preamp is. I've also seen questions about preamp plugins.

A preamp is a device that amplifies the low output of a microphone signal to line level so it can then be passed somewhere else in a chain. The next device could be anything like a compressor, eq, reverb or a digital converter to get the sound into a computer or some other kind of digital recorder. Because of what a preamp does, it's physically out of reach of the plugin domain. The most basic explaination of preamp is it's a volume control for your microphone. It's the thing you plug a microphone into. A preamp handles an analog audio signal that gets represented as electricity.

MIDI is a controlling and sequencing protocol that, in and of itself, has nothing to do with passing an audio signal. There is no such thing as a MIDI preamp.

Good preamps have names on them like Great River, API, Daking, Neve, Grace, and maybe Sytek or Sebatron. There are many others. High quality mics and preamps are very important for good results, and technique is even more important.

If you're really starting from scratch I'm a little curious to know what kind of monitors you have and what kind/size rooms you're recording and mixing in as well as if there's any acoustic treatment involved. Having nice gear is important for great results but that's not usually what's holding peoples' recordings back in the initial stages. Mic placement is very important. Gain staging is very important. Room acoustics are critical.

Ever heard of standing waves? Modes and nulls? Comb filtering? Early reflections? If not, you shouldn't have to spend a dime on patch bays and MIDI modules to get better recordings.

[SonicAlbert]

Originally Posted by JIMBOdrummer

i was thinking of getting a really nice pre for vox.

Im content mixing in logic for now.

so as of now on my list. is a nice pre and possibly a Reverb module. it's an effect i use allot and its one that i've realized can sound warmer if i have an outboard, dedicated unit.


Im not looking to TOTALY convert from digi to analog. There are just some things that aren't as good in a computer. In the end, this is all flowing into logic.

This all sounds good to me, just make sure you get a nice mic to go with that nice preamp.

Outboard hardware reverb does make a big difference, at least to my ears. Reverb/FX boxes that I've found to be useful and worth the money are: Lexicon PCM-91, Kurzweil KSP8, TC M3000, Klark Teknik DN-780, and Roland SRV-2000. I also really like my Eventide Reverb 2016. Of those, you could really make an excellent go of it with just the KSP8 and PCM-91.

[JIMBOdrummer]

Originally Posted by snow lizard

Whoever told you that a midi module makes a good preamp probably has no clue what a preamp is. I've also seen questions about preamp plugins.

A preamp is a device that amplifies the low output of a microphone signal to line level so it can then be passed somewhere else in a chain. The next device could be anything like a compressor, eq, reverb or a digital converter to get the sound into a computer or some other kind of digital recorder. Because of what a preamp does, it's physically out of reach of the plugin domain. The most basic explaination of preamp is it's a volume control for your microphone. It's the thing you plug a microphone into. A preamp handles an analog audio signal that gets represented as electricity.

MIDI is a controlling and sequencing protocol that, in and of itself, has nothing to do with passing an audio signal. There is no such thing as a MIDI preamp.

i mean some one suggested an outoard midi. obviously not as a preamp. as a midi?

do i need to make t clear that i know what a pre amp is... and that im not starting from scratch i just need to know the pros and cons of outboard hardware as apposed to digital effects.

read the thread then post

[snow lizard]

Originally Posted by JIMBOdrummer

read the thread then post

Sorry dude, I'm not trying to belittle or offend. It's just that you're asking questions that are all over the map and I wanted to try to avoid confusion. I think your first post is very revealing for where you're really at.

Originally Posted by JIMBOdrummer

What is your opinion on the preamp. Some one told me that a midi module would b good...

See how these things get started?

Seriously though, I think you've got bigger fish to fry than getting a bunch of outboard effects right now. Everyone here is giving you decent advice.

Follow your signal chain from start to finish to try to figure out what you have. It starts with a good room, good mics, good preamps and converters. And technique. BEFORE you get into outboard reverbs and stuff like that.

Even your MXL mics and your Alesis would sound better in a very well designed acoustic space. So do you have any bass traps or diffusors?

[Outlaws]

Skip all this garbage and treat your room. Then get a mic, preamp, and limiter, and run that into your DAW. But treat the room first.

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by snow lizard

..Seriously though, I think you've got bigger fish to fry than getting a bunch of outboard effects right now. Everyone here is giving you decent advice.

Follow your signal chain from start to finish to try to figure out what you have. It starts with a good room, good mics, good preamps and converters. And technique. BEFORE you get into outboard reverbs and stuff like that.

Even your MXL mics and your Alesis would sound better in a very well designed acoustic space. So do you have any bass traps or diffusors?

Exactly.

Im content mixing in logic for now.

That leaves nice pres (how many tracks at once?), a compressor or two? Do you know whether you'll be wanting to eq' on the way in yet? (that usually being a 'tread lightly' step quite a ways down the line..

[guitar486]

If you don't know what you "need" and why you "need" it then you should spend your money on some recording classes. Better to learn what you need than buy what you don't need.

[darrin_h2000]

There are a thousand recording classes on youtube...it might not be as good as interning like I had to do...but its free and you wont have to clean anybody elses studio.