Micing cabs vs. Amp Simulators

[lttoler]

I know this has prolly been discussed several times but I wanted to share my take. I have recorded by micing and using amp simulators. Right now I just use the Line 6 amp sims. To my ears, there has not been much differences in the tone of these vs. micing, especially when time is considered, and the fact that I have to run longer cables and use headphones. Does anyone else think that Amp simulators is the better route to go? I have been micing with a Shure SM58 so this may make a huge difference to...

[ocnor]

Originally Posted by lttoler

I know this has prolly been discussed several times but I wanted to share my take. I have recorded by micing and using amp simulators. Right now I just use the Line 6 amp sims. To my ears, there has not been much differences in the tone of these vs. micing, especially when time is considered, and the fact that I have to run longer cables and use headphones. Does anyone else think that Amp simulators is the better route to go? I have been micing with a Shure SM58 so this may make a huge difference to...

Line6 amp sims sound absolutely nothing like a real amp. They are buzzy, lifeless,and one dimensional sounding. You should hear a huge difference when micing an amp.

So either:
A. you are tonedeaf
B. your amp sucks
C. you don't know how to mic an amp correctly
D. one or more of the above apply

[lttoler]

http://www.myspace.com/mercuryheatband

here is a link to my band. "Should've Done" is using the amp sims. "Thing Called Love" is micing the cab. I am using a Mesa F-50 clean channel with a Fulltone OCD in front for the most part, which is my live setup and sounds great in reality but poor on recording.

[Jouni]

Originally Posted by lttoler

http://www.myspace.com/mercuryheatband
sounds great in reality but poor on recording.

That, my man, implies that there is something not up to par with the recording technique.
Find the sweet spot from the grille with your mic. Get an other mic, and find the sweet spot from about 3 feet away. Then mix these to taste.

In my experience, cabs sometimes sound better when miced from a distance. Not "in your face", but smoother more dynamic with more middles and bottom.

Example: Miced some 5 feet away:
http://serif.pp.fi/hatut/Kauhee.mp3
(rehealsals with drummer)

Same gear, sm57 in the grill:
http://serif.pp.fi/paskaa/tr01.wav
(recording EP, discarded) ...That sounds like shit, And however I placed the mic, straight or angled, it didn't get any better. Just raspy.

Micing a cab PROPERLY isn't always easy.

[Farview]

Another thing you might want to consider is setting up the amp so that it sounds good mic'd. What the amp sounds like in the room doesn't matter on your recording, what the mic sounds like through the 58 does.

[wbcsound]

It really depends on what you're trying to achieve and the tools available to you. Sure a nice amp in a nice room with a nice mic and a nice pre is going to out perform most amp modeling software. However, if you're working on a project in a tiny room and the noise level is a concern to your neighbors/ family members or your working on a track over the corse of days/weeks and need to have a consistent tone when you punch in you can get some very convincing results going direct using an amp modelor.

I think the difference is much less pronounced between close micing and amp modeling, but its much harder to get an amp in a room sound however a nice convolution based reverb to simulate room sound does wonders.

[lpdeluxe]

I recorded a guy using a Floor Pod Live XT (I think it was -- the first floor model) and he got convincing results with it. He didn't just turn the dial to an amp model: he tweaked each setting until he was satisfied with it. We didn't compare it with an amp because he drove to my studio from Austin with just the Floor Pod, and he didn't like the sound of the amps I had on hand.

And it was by no means noisy: I recorded it off its SPDIF output and the track had 0 noise. That's not just a little, that's NONE.

I was impressed and I eventually got a Floor Pod Plus for live performing. I use the wah and occasionally an effect like tremolo, and it's convenient not having to hook up a whole string of devices for one or two songs in a set. I don't use the amp modeling: the presets sound artificial and seem to be set for extreme sounds. I prefer my Fender Blues Jr or Jazzmaster Ultralight.

Where the Floor Pod Live excels is when you have a small space that you would overdrive easily (or offend the neighbors) micing an amp. It's not perfect, but, if you (or the guitar player, if that's another person) wants to spend the time to dial in the sound, it's very good. As with everything, results improve with time spent.

It's one more arrow for the quiver. I have recorded guitar by micing the amp, by doing DI with a stomp box, you name it, and there's only one rule: whatever sounds good, works.

And beware dogmatic statements.

[Muyukiguki]

I have done some clean f/x tracks using a DI and a software amp sim like Amplitube and got some pretty decent sounds. Record a band that I also played in where I recorded all my guitar tracks with a Mesa 50 single rec and a 4x12 cab mic'ed up and the other guitar player insisted that he track all his guitar stuff direct in through his Line6 head. He layed his tracks down first, then I layed mine down. After I tracked my guitar he went back and redid his tracks using the Mesa.

[thajeremy]

I typically use a Behringer V-amp....I like it better than the Line 6....If someone comes in with a really killer rig, and we can get a satisfactory sound fairly quickly, then we mic the amp....if time is a factor, and they cant afford to spend the time on the amp, we use the V-amp....I am perfectly comfortable, and confident in myself doing either and I think they both have their place in the studio...

[DrewPeterson7]

Originally Posted by lttoler

http://www.myspace.com/mercuryheatband

here is a link to my band. "Should've Done" is using the amp sims. "Thing Called Love" is micing the cab. I am using a Mesa F-50 clean channel with a Fulltone OCD in front for the most part, which is my live setup and sounds great in reality but poor on recording.

Myspace is blocked from work, so I can't comment on the recording for the tibe being. That said...

If you're playing a Mesa F-50 and you're not happy with the sound you're getting recorded even though you love it live, then there's something wrong with your micing technique or the way you're dialing in your amp. Period. That's a totally pro setup, there's no reason you shouldn't get a fundamentally solid tone out of it.

Try two things here - first, dial in your amp not so it sounds good in the room, but so it sounds good from an inch or two in front of the speaker, since this is where the mic is "listening" to it. There's a WORLD of difference between a good room sound and a good close mic'd sound.

Second, spend a lot of time working on mic position. Especially with something like a SM57/58, they're really pretty position-sensitive, so lots of small adjustments are going to be in order before you really nail the position. Also, your ear will initially tend to prefer "brighter" tones as they'll seem to be a bit louder, so try dialing in your mic position, recording a few seconds, then walking away from 10 minutes. If the sound you were previously happy with sounds pretty thin and ice-picky when you come back to it, you're too close to the center of the cone. You want balance, not oodles of treble.

My experience with models has been they're SUPER-user friendly; literally a plug-and-play solution to get a good tone. However, while it's way easier to dial in, I've yet to see a modeler really produce a result as good as a properly mic'd real amp. Learning how to mic an amp has a huge learning curve (I still don't even feel like an expert), but is totally worth it once you get the hang of it.

[Carny1122]

I often times use BOTH when I'm recording hard rock or metal bands...a very scooped sound from a rackmount POD, sort of like a dual rectifier type sound (but still scooped), and I mic my B-52 (the tube one, not those POS solid state ones) for a more natural, tube-y sound using some 609's and LDC's, then mesh all three sources. I've had good results with it. I have had a few circumstances where I only used a POD and it was either a hit or a miss, but with meshing the mics and the POD, it sounds great. Provides a nice backdrop of sorts for the amp sound. And I split my guitar signal so that I record all three simultaneously. Obviously.

[kojdogg]

Originally Posted by DrewPeterson7

Myspace is blocked from work, so I can't comment on the recording for the tibe being. That said...

If you're playing a Mesa F-50 and you're not happy with the sound you're getting recorded even though you love it live, then there's something wrong with your micing technique or the way you're dialing in your amp. Period. That's a totally pro setup, there's no reason you shouldn't get a fundamentally solid tone out of it.

Try two things here - first, dial in your amp not so it sounds good in the room, but so it sounds good from an inch or two in front of the speaker, since this is where the mic is "listening" to it. There's a WORLD of difference between a good room sound and a good close mic'd sound.

Second, spend a lot of time working on mic position. Especially with something like a SM57/58, they're really pretty position-sensitive, so lots of small adjustments are going to be in order before you really nail the position. Also, your ear will initially tend to prefer "brighter" tones as they'll seem to be a bit louder, so try dialing in your mic position, recording a few seconds, then walking away from 10 minutes. If the sound you were previously happy with sounds pretty thin and ice-picky when you come back to it, you're too close to the center of the cone. You want balance, not oodles of treble.

My experience with models has been they're SUPER-user friendly; literally a plug-and-play solution to get a good tone. However, while it's way easier to dial in, I've yet to see a modeler really produce a result as good as a properly mic'd real amp. Learning how to mic an amp has a huge learning curve (I still don't even feel like an expert), but is totally worth it once you get the hang of it.

I think this is all great advice. I used modellers for a long time and they generally sound good, are consistent and yeah are very easy to use. One thing that I don't like that became clear to me when I started micing cabs more was that even without spending a ton of time on mic positioning and going with tried and true methods I was getting better sounding tracks. I do believe that some of this owes to the fact that if you use an outboard modeller, the signal goes through a cheap A/D before it hits the model, and then has to go through another D/A on the way out. I think that this does contribute to the hazy mush that can result if you layer multiple guitar tracks together. I have gotten much better results using the Gearbox Gold models where I DI'ed guitar tracks and applied the model in the box as a plugin than I ever did with the Pod.

One of the problems with trying to get mic positioning right is that if you're both the guitarist and the engineer (as many home recorders are, in addition to being the vocalist, bassist, keyboardist, etc.) it's really hard to adjust mic positioning before you record. I recently got a Grendel Sound Dead Room II isolation cabinet which was bit pricey and involved a bit of lead time, but I love it. I can start with a couple of mics in a typical 'best practice' position, listen on my monitors at low volume or Sennheiser HD600's as I play a bit, open the little door up and tweak the mic positioning until I get the sound I want. I suppose an acoustically well-treated closet or home made isolation cabinet could offer the same kind of options too.

[suprstar]

I thought my POD sounded awesome, and I pooh pooh'ed all the nay sayers who said mic'ing is better. Then I got some a 57 and A/B'ed the sound, and the amp/mic wins hands down every time for me. If you can't even tell the difference, that amazes me.

I will not DI my pod for serious tracking ever again. The setup I have now allows me to capture the pod di AND the 57 on my amp. And the better I got my amp dialed in, the more dramatic the difference. Even tho I have the DI track I haven't used it in any mix for months now.

[DrewPeterson7]

Originally Posted by suprstar

I thought my POD sounded awesome, and I pooh pooh'ed all the nay sayers who said mic'ing is better. Then I got some a 57 and A/B'ed the sound, and the amp/mic wins hands down every time for me. If you can't even tell the difference, that amazes me.

I will not DI my pod for serious tracking ever again. The setup I have now allows me to capture the pod di AND the 57 on my amp. And the better I got my amp dialed in, the more dramatic the difference. Even tho I have the DI track I haven't used it in any mix for months now.

I used to record through a Johnson J-Station. It didn't sound half bad, particularly the two Mesa models and the Blackface after you ran them tyhrough 1x12 cab models to cut down the boominess, but the eye opener for me was when I started trying to record a mix of tracks from a mic'd amp and tracks from the modeler. The J-Station sounded fine as long as there were only modeled tracks on a performance, but real amp tracks ate the thing for breakfast.

I continued to use it for a while for the occasional really weird overdub - I had this patch with a slow-attack noise gate and a TON of delay that was actually kind of a blast for adding ambience to a track - but I eventually just gave it to a buddy of mine up in Canada after he had to sell his amp for financial reasons, just so he had something to keep playing through.

Actually, what the heck, here's that patch I was talking about in action - this whole thing was recorded years ago on Acid 2.0 with a J-station, so go easy on me.

http://www.drewpeterson.org/music/Seven/6-Exhale.mp3

[Ripthorn]

I have found that some clean models do well, but most overdrive and distortion are not up to par with a lot of stuff I am into now. I am building tube amps and stompboxes and the more I build, the less I find myself using the POD. But there are still some sounds (mostly modulation effects) that I use.

I agree with most the other people, if you can't get a great sound from a Mesa F-50 even though it sounds great live, there is something wrong going on between the amp and the computer.

[mcmetal]

Just because your set-up sounds great live doesn't mean it will sound just as great recorded.For one,you're not in a live club and the room characteristics will be diffferent.Most times using less gain for recording will work wonders.If you're layering more then one track then the more gain you have the more it will muddy up the mix.I tried amplitude and thought it sounded real artificial but i would like to take the time one of these days to try tweaking out different amp settings on my gnx2.The direct out sounds harsh but i havn't experimented with sending it out through the spdif jack.Who knows i may like it.

[Creamyapples1]

I just can't get into simulators. Not sure what it is, maybe it's the type of music I play, I don't know. To me, you just can't be a decent amp/cabinet with two 57s. Mic'd amps and cabs have done me very well. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Though I have heard some really really really kickass tracks recorded direct, using sims. They're just not for me.


KT

[GONZO-X]

Micing cabs vs. Amp Simulators

NEITHER!!

LOL


i use a Palmer PDI-09 now, totally happy.

so fast, so easy, so dialed in.

[Zaphod B]

I've used my Pod XTL exclusively on a couple of songs and it can sound very good. I do prefer micing the Vox (AC30), though. The Pod has a little of an artifical piezo-type artifact that never goes away but that doesn't render it unuseable.

Micing my amp, in my room, gives an ambience that I can't get out of the Pod.

But like lpdeluxe said, it's all about using the right tool for the right sound, and being dogmatic about it just limits your options.

When I think about some of the suck tones I have heard over the years recorded from real amps on various populaor recordings, it's hard for me to think that a modeler is always a bad idea.

[darrin_h2000]

I have been using a Tech21 trademark 30...and I prefer it miced with an SM57 in my isolation cabinet...allthough I can also run it direct with a simulator...it just sounds bigger that way.

[jayess]

Here's my 2 cents on that "hot" subject

Comparing amps sim and their real life conterpart is like...comparing a Yaris and a Hummer. Which one is the best ? They both get you from point A to point B right ? "Hell Jayess, those cars doesn't have the same purposes !

With real amps, you can achieve the most pristine sound, if :

* you have the cash
* the space
* a sound engineer or you are skilled in that field of expertise
* you have the cash

With amp sims, your sound would probably be less stellar, but you get those benefits :

* Save space
* Save cash
* FLEXIBILITY (note the capital letters)
* etc.

So you have to ask this question : can I afford the drawbacks of real life amps ? if the answer is "yes", go for the real thing. If your answer is "no" (like me), amps sim is the way to go. I just start recording with the PODxt and POD farm and with a bit (read a lot) of tweaking, I can get a monster sound out of it.

[Ronan]

Originally Posted by jayess

* FLEXIBILITY (note the capital letters)

I have not really found any amp sims to be more flexible than a decent (not super expensive) tube amp and a few guitar pedals. Quite the opposite in fact.

As a guy that mixes records for lots of other people for a living I can tell you that almost 100% of the time the tracks recorded with real amps are superior to the amp sim tracks, even when recorded by amateurs with less than stellar equipment.

[jayess]

you are mixing two concept in my opinion. flexibility and sound quality. Even if all the amp models are average in, let say, the podxt, this is still 70+ amps that you have at your finger tips with sh*t load of effects VS a 2 channel amp.

furthermore, you wont convince me that a 300$ amp, let alone the other proper equipment required, will give me a better recording sound than my podxt (and I'm not talking about the hassle of getting the proper environement, positioning of the mics, etc.).

Is analog better than modeling sound wise ? I believe yes, of course. But the best sound quality comes at a price, time and patience that some can't affort.

[Zaphod B]

This is a little off-topic, but as I was reading this thread I was thinking about the preponderance of acoustic guitars fitted with active electronics and how that sound predominates in popular music.

They don't sound anything like a mic'd acoustic but the sound has, for better or worse (worse, IMO), become part of the lexicon.

Surely these guitars have their advantages in live situations particularly, but they still don't sound like an acoustic - not to my ears, anyway. (This is another of my beefs with Clapton.) But the the sound contains enough of the characteristics of a "pure" acoustic to be recognizable (and I guess acceptable) as an acoustic.

Back to amps and modelers, so much popular music is overprocessed that it's impossible to tell anything about the guitar amps anyway. I'd say that in the commercial pop arena, modelers can do the job just fine. For music that depends on the certain sound of an actual amp, only a real live amp is going to cut it.

[DrewPeterson7]

Originally Posted by jayess

* Save space
* Save cash
* FLEXIBILITY (note the capital letters)
* etc.

Actually, the big benefit for a Pod, in my eyes, is repeatability. If I'm working on a song, finish a take, break for the night, and come back the next morning and decide the solo's great but there's one note where I'm just a little TOO behind the beat, or something, with a Pod it's a simple matterof just plugging in and calling up the patch you were using. With a real amp, if I've either changed settings to record another part (especially true for me since I run my Recto with a THD Hot Plate and often record rhythms and leads with different amounts of poweram saturation) or even accidently nudged the mic since I last tracked a part (not hard, since I work in my bedroom), then it's almost impossible to seamlessly punch in a new note or two. I can either recut the solo or leave it.

It's not the end of the word, especially since sometimes it's good to force yourself not to get hung up over every last little detail, but that is the one clear advantage I see for a Pod over my amp.