DAV BG1 too loud?

[slotter]

Hi all,
new to the forum.
I'm using a DAV BG1 into a Edirol UA-101 onto cubase.
I read that to get a good level out the BG1 you have to have the green light lit most the time but avoid the red one. Thta's ok, no problem, but then everything I record onto cubase it hitting top all the time.

Anyone else had this problem with the BG1.. is it even a problem? Maybe I should just lower the gain on the preamp and that's that? Thing is then you can't see what level you are at cus there's only 2 monitering led's (-3db and over)

thanks
dave

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by slotter

Hi all,
new to the forum.
I'm using a DAV BG1 into a Edirol UA-101 onto cubase.
I read that to get a good level out the BG1 you have to have the green light lit most the time but avoid the red one. Thta's ok, no problem, but then everything I record onto cubase it hitting top all the time.

Anyone else had this problem with the BG1.. is it even a problem? Maybe I should just lower the gain on the preamp and that's that? Thing is then you can't see what level you are at cus there's only 2 monitering led's (-3db and over)

Don't worry about the green light, red light thing. Pay attention to the levels you're getting in Cubase. You should be recording at line level, which on most converters equates to -18dBFS RMS or so. Obviously stuff with hard, fast transients (like drums) will peak higher...-6dBFS maybe.

Frank

[Supercreep]

We use A-designs' ATTY with our BG-1 for the same reason.

[oretez]

if you're not clipping in cuebase you are fine

if you are clipping then you need to 'turn down' something

search on various forums for 'gain staging' threads

One initial thing to check is that if you are plugging the DAV into the inputs on the back of the Edirol make sure those are set to match the DAV's nominal output, +4. If the the inputs you use are set to -10 (dBu) you might run into trouble

good luck

[slotter]

thanks guys
seems the BG1 is a bit of a beast!
the inputs are set to +4db, so no worries there

looks like im gonna have to turn down the BG1 a bit when recording

[slotter]

hey supercreep
just checked the ATTY, looks like a good investment actually... found one on ebay for 80 dollas, that seem like a fair price?

[pohaku]

FWIW, NHTPro also makes a similar device. Either the ATTY or the PVCPro would work fine. $80 is a pretty good discounted price.


http://nhthifi.com/current/products/pchifi/pvcpro.html

http://www.listenup.com/lu/merchant....2&Store_Code=l

[slotter]

Thanks alot guys
Phaku: couldn't find much info on the NHTpro (the links you gave me didnt work)

so, I've decided to go for an ATTY, read some good stuff about them and it would be great to be able to use more of the BG1's headroom without freakin out the A/D converters on the Edirol.

Thanks again
d

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by slotter

so, I've decided to go for an ATTY, read some good stuff about them and it would be great to be able to use more of the BG1's headroom without freakin out the A/D converters on the Edirol.

I'm sorry, but threads like this make no sense to me. The goal of headroom is to have it, not to purposely use it up. What is so difficult about turning down the pre? There are only a couple of situations where that is the wrong answer:

- the preamp is designed to saturate or generate pleasing distortion at very high levels. I don't think that's the case with the BG1; I thought it was designed as a clean preamp.

- you need a certain level of gain to maximize signal-to-noise ratio. For most preamps, that's about 20dB.

Otherwise, this seems like an exercise in spending money to get the LEDs to light up on the preamp.

[Supercreep]

Originally Posted by mshilarious

I'm sorry, but threads like this make no sense to me. The goal of headroom is to have it, not to purposely use it up. What is so difficult about turning down the pre? There are only a couple of situations where that is the wrong answer:

- the preamp is designed to saturate or generate pleasing distortion at very high levels. I don't think that's the case with the BG1; I thought it was designed as a clean preamp.

- you need a certain level of gain to maximize signal-to-noise ratio. For most preamps, that's about 20dB.

Otherwise, this seems like an exercise in spending money to get the LEDs to light up on the preamp.

On overheads, the BG-1 can clip the converters on my 896HD at extremely low volume settings.

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by Supercreep

On overheads, the BG-1 can clip the converters on my 896HD at extremely low volume settings.

How? With its pad in, the BG-1 has minimum gain of 0dB. Take a hot condenser, say -30dBV/Pa. If your overheads are 124dBSPL (that's awfully freaking loud for overheads), then your mic's output is 0dBV, plus 0dB gain is 0dBV. How does that clip a +4dBu converter? Heck, it probably wouldn't clip a -10dBV converter!

[MOFO Pro]

Originally Posted by mshilarious

Otherwise, this seems like an exercise in spending money to get the LEDs to light up on the preamp.

+100.. I'm with you there... just turn it down... if you have issues with noise or thin audio, then try padding... Put your wallet away and use your ears

[ofajen]

Originally Posted by slotter

Thanks alot guys
Phaku: couldn't find much info on the NHTpro (the links you gave me didnt work)

so, I've decided to go for an ATTY, read some good stuff about them and it would be great to be able to use more of the BG1's headroom without freakin out the A/D converters on the Edirol.

Thanks again
d

You could just make a pair of fixed pads with three resistors per channel for an unbalanced line or five resistors per channel for a balanced line. That's cheap and easy.

For example, I have a bank of fixed pads built into an old patch bay that I used when mixing the +4 balanced outputs of a 1" 8 track into a Mackie mixer. That let me track at proper levels and not overload the mixer.

Cheers,

Otto

[Massive Master]

if you're not clipping in cuebase you are fine

I'm not even going to go there...

The problem is how the converters in the 101 are calibrated. I'd bet a small amount that they're bouncing around -12dBFS instead of the -20dBFS where they should be.

Looking at the specs of that unit, there seems to be some interesting number-fudging going on... And it doesn't even mention where line level falls on the scale - which worries the hell out of me.

And a rather hilarious paragraph which I'll share with the class:

The UA-101 allows you more freedom in setting your recording levels with the built-in limiter. Prevent clipping in your recordings. Get high-quality studio recordings with a wide dynamic range. No more worry about clipping a live recording or losing valuable signal because of brief loud transients.

Yep, that's the way to get a "high quality studio recording with a wide dynamic range" -- Set your levels WAAAAAAAYYYYY too hot and let a limiter catch the transients.

Anyone who doesn't take "brief loud transients" into consideration long before hitting the "RECORD" button deserves whatever clipping he gets.

ANYWAY -- See if there's a way to calibrate the converters to a reasonable level (-20dBFS is a personal favorite, but that's only because most adjustable converters stop there. I'd use -24dBFS for tracking if it were an option). If there isn't, then just back it down.

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by MOFO Pro

+100.. I'm with you there... just turn it down... if you have issues with noise or thin audio, then try padding... Put your wallet away and use your ears

MS and MOFO...great posts. I'm not sure I understand the point of a line attenuation device in this case. Why not just turn the preamp down?

Frank

[slotter]

hey guys
thanks for all the replies
I'm a bit of a newbie when it comes to digital recording and mic pre's..
I always thought that to get the best sound and singal to noise out of a preamp is to have it as loud as possible without clipping.. but the BG1 clips the UA-101 really easily. When playing or singing with dynamics, this is very hard to control... Or I record really quiet to leave room for the louder parts, or I get clipping. I know someone's going to mention a compressor now, but I don't like using compressors if I can help it.. at least not at the tracking stage.

I have also read whilst researching the ATTY that using a line attenuator can allow you to pump the preamp a little more and get a fatter sound out of the mic.. it just seems to give me more options when tracking.

I will play around some more without one.. but i am seriously considering getting one for my set up.

once again, thanks loads for the responses. Very helpfull and imformative.
Cgeers
d

[slotter]

ooh massive master

thanks for replying.. but I have no idea where to start in terms of calibrating the convertors in the UA-101... totally lost me on that one!

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by slotter

I have also read whilst researching the ATTY that using a line attenuator can allow you to pump the preamp a little more and get a fatter sound out of the mic.. it just seems to give me more options when tracking.

That depends on what happens to the preamp when you crank the levels. The BG-1 has a stated ginourmous amount of headroom. So the mostly likely thing that would happen would be nothing other than heating the resistors in the ATTY a bit.

Where people like to crank pres is with stuff that has multiple tube stages or an output transformer--those are devices that will distort in a pleasing manner.

I don't think the BG-1 is designed to distort at all. Even at the +18dBu level that lights its red LED, it still has 11dB of headroom. So the difference in distortion with that box between green LED and an actual nominal level of +4dBu is probably slim to none.

That's a dangerous rule to learn, because a lot of cheaper gear isn't designed as robustly as the BG-1. When you push it up to +18dBu as a nominal level, the results are not likely to be euphonic.

I really think DAV should have set the level of the green LED to +4dBu, then there would be no threads like this. The green would indicate nominal level, and the red a fairly close clipping indicator for most +4dBu converters, still with 11dB of analog headroom. Difference in the audio performance of the unit with the LED triggered at a different level? None. Think about that.

Learn to walk before you run . . . if you need band-aids to manage basic gain staging, that is a sign you might not be ready to jump into pushing gear beyond its limits . . .

I could write a long technical post about gain staging and noise performance, but you probably already thought this post was long and technical, so . . . just trust me that noise is not likely to be an issue if you are worried about clipping a converter.

[slotter]

msHilarious
I appreciate you replies and will take them into consideration. You are probably right.. but seeing that other people use the ATTY for this puropse made me think it could help me. Seems it may be a waste of money for me right now... I need to do more research into the subject and your responses are a lot of help.

1 thing I'd like to point out though, with all respect, is that you seem almost angry that I'm asking these questions.

"I'm sorry, but threads like this make no sense to me. The goal of headroom is to have it, not to purposely use it up. What is so difficult about turning down the pre?.."

The point in a thread like this is so someone can learn something valuable from people who know. There is nothing "difficult" about turning down the preamp, it was just a question, a quest for more knowledge on this particular subject.

"...if you need band-aids to manage basic gain staging..."

I'm a proffesional Guitarist/singer and have worked with many international artists and have released many albums on labels across the world.. I get asked alot of advice about guitar techniques and never have I considered anyone who doesn't know in need of "band aids."

I really apreciate your responses, truly...but you kinda leave a guy feeling a bit stupid when there's no need.. you obviously know a lot about recording and you should be proud to share you're knowledge without leaving someone feeling bad for not knowing. Everyone has their specialities and everyone can learn from someone else.. no need to feel bad about that.

Anyway... thanks again for taking the time. I'm gonna play more with the BG1 without the ATTY and see what happens... see if I can finally take off these band aids!!

[Supercreep]

Originally Posted by mshilarious

How? With its pad in, the BG-1 has minimum gain of 0dB.

Incanus and I, on this bbs, had recieved previous admonitions to not use pads because they increase noise.

[Supercreep]

Thanks, MSH.

We'll take off the ATTY, per your suggestion. I was operating under a mistaken assumption, as you have percieved.

Plenty of useful places to put the ATTY, I was considering getting a second.

[ofajen]

Having looked a little closer at this thread, I would suggest that you just turn down the gain as needed to keep the levels safe. My comment was just a general way to save money if padding were really needed for best results, but I don't think it's needed here.

The example I gave is one where padding really was needed for best results. My (former) 3M M-56 was not designed for adjustable output levels and the output was a bit much for my Mackie, so padding each output by 6 dB really did improve the sound by avoiding overload on the Mackie. That is a case where you not only don't want to overload the following input stage, but you really don't even want to get close, because the sound starts to degrade below overload. The levels on the tape on the M-56, however, were very critical and turning the level down there arbitrarily to keep the output level down would directly decrease the signal to noise performance as well.

I don't use the BG-1 and forgot that the green light is lighting at a pretty high level. If it were my design, that +18 lamp would be a yellow warning indicator and I'd add a green light at +4. My handy MixPre has LEDs at -30,-15, 0, +4, +8, +12 and +16, which gives an adequate picture of where levels are at. In your case, no need to worry about cranking the gain to light the +18 light, just set it for safe levels and press record.

Cheers,

Otto

[MOFO Pro]

Originally Posted by slotter

I always thought that to get the best sound and singal to noise out of a preamp is to have it as loud as possible without clipping...

Very true and it's sometime necessary to pad to keep your gain staging optimum... but not always

Originally Posted by slotter

I have also read whilst researching the ATTY that using a line attenuator can allow you to pump the preamp a little more and get a fatter sound out of the mic.. it just seems to give me more options when tracking.

True again... but only if you're unhappy with the sound you're presently getting...

I was just trying to state the obvious... you never mentioned that you were unhappy with the sound... just that you couldn't get your light steady green without clipping on transients...

I own a BG-1... I don't own an attenuator... I'm happy with the performance

[ofajen]

Originally Posted by slotter

I always thought that to get the best sound and singal to noise out of a preamp is to have it as loud as possible without clipping.. but the BG1 clips the UA-101 really easily.

This can actually be far from correct. "Best sound" and "best signal to noise" may not be the same thing and may not occur at the same settings.

Back when I tracked to my M-56 using the preamps on my little Mackie, I would crank the recorder input gain levels by at least 6 dB. Again, the best sound was obtained when the peak output levels were nowhere near the +22 maximum output of the preamp channels.

Signal to noise was probably exactly the same, regardless of the recorder gain setting, primarily because the tape noise dominated, but even without tape noise, signal to noise in the preamp signal would probably have been about the same either way. Theoretically, signal to noise might have been best at the highest setting to avoid clipping. OTOH, the signal was much cleaner by operating a safe amount below the maximum output level.

Cheers,

Otto

[Massive Master]

Originally Posted by slotter

ooh massive master

thanks for replying.. but I have no idea where to start in terms of calibrating the convertors in the UA-101... totally lost me on that one!

I'd unfortunately have to bet that you can't. The best you can probably do is find out what line level is. And that won't really help anything anyway (except it'll let you know how much headroom you're missing out on).