DAW Theories: Unique Color?

[LeeRosario]

First let me start by saying that its been way too long since I've had the pleasure of passing through here to read and interact.

The basic beans and potatoes of this discussion asks the question, "is it possible that every DAW has a different "color" aka specific sonic qualities it prints on to its mixes. Perhaps due to different summing algorithms?

What makes up the sonic fingerprint of a DAWs output?

Perhaps in the same way mixes done on SSLs tend to sound one way compared to say, a mix done on an Amek or a Mackie?

As I'm working on a current Nuendo project, I started going through old mixes I had done on Pro Tools and I was realizing I was still hearing a major difference. I found mixing in pro tools to sound thick, smooth and beefy...with tendencies to muddy the mix if not careful. Whereas Nuendo mixing tends to have a much more transparent, neutral and clean quality.

Or perhaps I'm crazy?


I have a somewhat similar song done in both PT and Nuendo I can show (for discussion purposes) if needed.

[BushmasterM4]

I asked the same question over at another forum a few months ago. It received alot of input. http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music...ious-daws.html Most say no difference. Check it out.

[noisewreck]

There is no difference in the audio playback engine or the summing algorithms.

However, once you start doing things that are specific to a given environment, then it gets more murky. For example Logic gives you bezier curves for automation, while Cubase does not. So for sure automation would sound different among the two DAWs. They may even effect the sound because they force a certain way of working that's specific to one DAW but not others. How you interact with plugins etc would also have it's effect...

In short, the sonic differences aren't due to the summing algorithms, but many other little things that really don't have much to do with the audio engine itself.

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by LeeRosario

"is it possible that every DAW has a different "color" aka specific sonic qualities it prints on to its mixes.

What makes up the sonic fingerprint of a DAWs output?

Your converters.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by LeeRosario

The basic beans and potatoes of this discussion asks the question, "is it possible that every DAW has a different "color" aka specific sonic qualities it prints on to its mixes. Perhaps due to different summing algorithms?

Hey Lee! Long time, no read.

How to speciically answer that depends upon what you mean by "DAW". By the "conventional" definition, which refers to an all-in-one package of hardware and software integrated into a single package, then Waltz is on the right track; you'll have hardware coloration from mic preamps, converters, power conditioning, etc., plus the stuff mentioned below.

If you're simply referring to multitrack NLE software like Nuendo and Logic and so forth, then noisewreck is on the right track with "coloration" based upon the processing algorithms it uses. A common one here would be how the panning laws are set to operate, but there'd also be more obvious things such as the EQ and compression algorithms used.

The evidence is pretty solid that there is no difference in digital summing algorithms because the math is pretty straightforward and null tests repeatedly show them to be identical.

G.

[NYMorningstar]

Originally Posted by LeeRosario

Or perhaps I'm crazy?

You're crazy!








































Welcome back Lee! Can't wait to hear your new fingerprints err wait I thought they never change? Did you get a facelift too?

[LeeRosario]

Glen, Bob...good to read familiar faces again

I asked the same question over at another forum a few months ago. It received alot of input. http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music...ious-daws.html Most say no difference. Check it out.

Bushmaster...very good additional info here.

There is no difference in the audio playback engine or the summing algorithms.

However, once you start doing things that are specific to a given environment, then it gets more murky. For example Logic gives you bezier curves for automation, while Cubase does not. So for sure automation would sound different among the two DAWs. They may even effect the sound because they force a certain way of working that's specific to one DAW but not others. How you interact with plugins etc would also have it's effect...

In short, the sonic differences aren't due to the summing algorithms, but many other little things that really don't have much to do with the audio engine itself.

noisewreck, this makes tons of sense. I mean changing from platforms, I do definitely find those differences in processing individual channels. That was always a big factor to me when using any favorite plug-in between the two.

Waltz laid it out pretty much on a hardware level, I just wanted sure if the actual software itself made a difference. Like say, working with a MOTU HD interface that was compatible with stuff like Logic, Nuendo, Sonar or what have you.


I'm thinking I might just be forcing myself to hear something that's not there. Or I might just have had a preconceived notion that "one plateform will make your shit sound awesome just by running it through there". Very analog console mentality...which might not always be a good thing for this inside the box mixing stuff.


Very helpful stuff here.


ps


Bob, facelifts are just the way the entertainment industry gets by. At this rate, I'll look like Liza Minelli by the time I'm 30.

[NL5]

Originally Posted by BushmasterM4

I asked the same question over at another forum a few months ago. It received alot of input. http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music...ious-daws.html Most say no difference. Check it out.

There is some HILARIOUS shit in that thread. It's amazing how little most people know about computers. ROTFLMAO.

[LeeRosario]

Originally Posted by NL5

There is some HILARIOUS shit in that thread. It's amazing how little most people know about computers. ROTFLMAO.

Witness the giant thumbs up above. Time noted at 4:56pm.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by LeeRosario

I'm thinking I might just be forcing myself to hear something that's not there.

Those panning laws can trick good ears. This can cause as much as a 2-3dB difference in the playback volume of the various tracks even if you pan them the same way in the different platforms.

Not only can a 2-3dB difference in just a soloed mono track cause a difference in "sound", even to a good ear, just because the increased/decreased playback volume of the track, but when you add together the differences from several tracks mixed together at varying volumes, it can cause a significant difference between DAW mixes, but only if the engineer treats the mix by the numbers and not by the ear, and only if the engineer assumes that the difference in panning laws does not exist.

Put another way, if you have notes that say that on platform A that you mixed track three 30% left at a fader level of 3dB below unity gain, that does NOT mean that in platform B you'll necessarily just want to duplicate those settings to get it to sound the same. You may need to change the fader level a couple of dB up or down to compensate for the different panning law used by that DAW, or may choose an alternate mix of leaving the level the same but pushing the the pan a few extra degrees to the left to give the quieter track more room inthe mix, or something like that.

That does not mean that the DAWs make things sound different because they have their own color, but rather that the exact control settings may need to be slightly different in order to achieve the exact same results. This is different than "coloration" in the standard sense; no matter how you adjust the controls, you'll never get a Mackie EQ to sound like a Trident EQ or an Alesis compressor to sound like a Manley compressor, because they are coloring the sound in ways that go well beyond differences in control calibration.

G.

[LeeRosario]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

Those panning laws can trick good ears. This can cause as much as a 2-3dB difference in the playback volume of the various tracks even if you pan them the same way in the different platforms.

Not only can a 2-3dB difference in just a soloed mono track cause a difference in "sound", even to a good ear, just because the increased/decreased playback volume of the track, but when you add together the differences from several tracks mixed together at varying volumes, it can cause a significant difference between DAW mixes, but only if the engineer treats the mix by the numbers and not by the ear, and only if the engineer assumes that the difference in panning laws does not exist.

Put another way, if you have notes that say that on platform A that you mixed track three 30% left at a fader level of 3dB below unity gain, that does NOT mean that in platform B you'll necessarily just want to duplicate those settings to get it to sound the same. You may need to change the fader level a couple of dB up or down to compensate for the different panning law used by that DAW, or may choose an alternate mix of leaving the level the same but pushing the the pan a few extra degrees to the left to give the quieter track more room inthe mix, or something like that.

That does not mean that the DAWs make things sound different because they have their own color, but rather that the exact control settings may need to be slightly different in order to achieve the exact same results. This is different than "coloration" in the standard sense; no matter how you adjust the controls, you'll never get a Mackie EQ to sound like a Trident EQ or an Alesis compressor to sound like a Manley compressor, because they are coloring the sound in ways that go well beyond differences in control calibration.

G.

Good points in there, Glen. I helps me remember to stick to the oath an engineer takes when doing anything at work..."just use your ears".

I would hope any formal or informal training I have helps me understand this things correctly. Always a learning process.



I'm proposing to mix one of my current projects on both Nuendo and PT. I'll try my best to get them to sound alike, hopefully with little enough variables to show any difference in overall feel. The approach being exactly the same and hopefully sticking to plug-ins both can use.