low-end recording equipment upgrade

[expatCanuck]

Greetings -

I'm a simple guy with simple needs -- recording acoustic strings (guitar/mando/banjo)
and vocals, one track at a time. I also would like to hook up MIDI out from
our Roland F-90.

My current home recording setup uses an AT2020 or SM-57 into a MobilePre,
thence to a homegrown PC (single-core Athlon 3000+, 1MB RAM, modern SATA drive,
WinXP Pro). Good enough to run Audacity, Reaper, Music Creator or the like).

But I do like to play with harmony vocals, and find that when I layer vocals,
things can start to get muddy.

So I'm considering an upgrade. Overlooking, for the moment, my own inability
as a songwriter, performer and recording engineer, I'd expect the (next) weakest
technical link to be the MobilePre.

I've read conflicting opinions as to whether, from a sonic perspective, it would be worth
moving to the $250-$400 product class (e.g. - Echo Gina3G, FA-66, Saffire LE).
I'd certainly welcome opinions in this regard.

At the very top of my budget (okay -- a bit beyond my budget) are the FMR RNP
or BLA Auteur. Now, if I purchase one of those units, I certainly can't also afford
anything along the lines of the BLA Sparrow or any other such AD for some time.
(And I'd need a DA unit as well, anyway)

So, would it at all make sense to pair an RNP/Auteur-class preamp with an AD/DA unit
along the lines of, say the EMU1212? A comparably cost-effective alternative?
Or might I just as well use the converter in my MobilePre?
But does it even make sense to do that -- wouldn't the weak AD/DA
kill any advantage in the good preamp?

Thoughts, suggestions, questions or other aid in curing the analysis paralysis welcome.

Thanks kindly.

- Richard
oldWithoutMoney.com

[tdukex]

Originally Posted by expatCanuck

Greetings -

I'm a simple guy with simple needs -- recording acoustic strings (guitar/mando/banjo)
and vocals, one track at a time. I also would like to hook up MIDI out from
our Roland F-90.

My current home recording setup uses an AT2020 or SM-57 into a MobilePre,
thence to a homegrown PC (single-core Athlon 3000+, 1MB RAM, modern SATA drive,
WinXP Pro). Good enough to run Audacity, Reaper, Music Creator or the like).

But I do like to play with harmony vocals, and find that when I layer vocals,
things can start to get muddy.

So I'm considering an upgrade. Overlooking, for the moment, my own inability
as a songwriter, performer and recording engineer, I'd expect the (next) weakest
technical link to be the MobilePre.

I've read conflicting opinions as to whether, from a sonic perspective, it would be worth
moving to the $250-$400 product class (e.g. - Echo Gina3G, FA-66, Saffire LE).
I'd certainly welcome opinions in this regard.

At the very top of my budget (okay -- a bit beyond my budget) are the FMR RNP
or BLA Auteur. Now, if I purchase one of those units, I certainly can't also afford
anything along the lines of the BLA Sparrow or any other such AD for some time.
(And I'd need a DA unit as well, anyway)

So, would it at all make sense to pair an RNP/Auteur-class preamp with an AD/DA unit
along the lines of, say the EMU1212? A comparably cost-effective alternative?
Or might I just as well use the converter in my MobilePre?
But does it even make sense to do that -- wouldn't the weak AD/DA
kill any advantage in the good preamp?

Thoughts, suggestions, questions or other aid in curing the analysis paralysis welcome.

Thanks kindly.

- Richard
oldWithoutMoney.com

I haven't heard the Mobile Pre, but IMO the EMU 1212 IMO would be a definite ADA upgrade, and the DMP3 would also be a noticable upgrade over the preamps in the MP.

[witzendoz]

You have not mentioned the acoustics of where you record, it could be that as you layer the acoustics of you space are adding to the mud.

If your recording space has no acoustic treatment maybe you should budget to improve the space before buying more gear. A small amount spent in this area can improve recordings heaps.

Cheers

Alan.

[jaz49]

Originally Posted by witzendoz

You have not mentioned the acoustics of where you record, it could be that as you layer the acoustics of you space are adding to the mud.

+1 Assuming you have done some room treatment, the converters in the emu 0404 are supposed to be first rate. A guy I know who has over 20 yrs. studio experience speaks highly of this unit. The preamps aren't at all bad either, until you can afford an outboard pre. My situation is similar to yours and I often use the 0404 with no other pre. I tried a vtb-1, but I wound up preferring the pres in the emu.

[darrin_h2000]

Id limit it to three layers...and pan them so they spread across the stage...that will get rid of the muddy...you are singing the same on each track right?...thats what Id do.

[expatCanuck]

Originally Posted by darrin_h2000

...you are singing the same on each track right?...

Ummm --- nope.
At times, 1-4 background vocals.

BTW - op, ks, eh?
I spent 7-8 months working in Overland Park in 2004, and loved spending my evenings at Doc Fuller's open mikes (the Peanut & Peanut north). I certainly do miss hearing him, Alan White, Jeanne & Jenny.

Cheers.

- Richard

[kojdogg]

Well, please take this all with a grain of salt because I just listed on some iPod ear buds plugged into very crappy computer speakers (as opposed to my Adam A7's or Sennheiser HD600's at home ), but it's a very sparse arrangement-- just ac guitar and vocals and IMHO it doesn't necessarily sound "muddy"-- a description often associated with excessive or distorted bass/midrange, but there are several vocal tracks fighting for the same space and not much of a musical bed/foundation to stand on. Personally, I might try beefing up the acoustic track by turning it up a little bit, maybe a bit of compression and a touch of eq on the lead vocal track and guitar (no more than a couple of db of either) and then some subtractive eq on the background vocals (a low cut to start-- maybe a dramatic one to thin them out a bit) and maybe turning them down a little bit so they don't have equal weight to the primary melody volume-wise. The panning idea for the bg vocals is a good idea too.-- in general everything seems bunched up in the center. A stereo expander plugin or reverb used with great discretion might help.
I reserve the right to take back all of these suggestions if I listen to your track with better monitoring later though...

[expatCanuck]

Originally Posted by kojdogg

Well, please take this all with a grain of salt ...
I reserve the right to take back all of these suggestions if I listen to your track with better monitoring later though...

No need to take anything back. I'm reasonably new to recording, certainly new to mixing, and the tune is a sketch in its infancy (a neonate, in fact).

I welcome any thoughtful advice, and yours clearly is.

Cheers.

- Richard

[omtayslick]

Yup, pan 'em and spread 'em out. Then thin them with eq if nessesary. The individual sounds aren't bad. As was already said they're just fighting for the same space.

[darrin_h2000]

Originally Posted by expatCanuck

Ummm --- nope.
At times, 1-4 background vocals.

BTW - op, ks, eh?
I spent 7-8 months working in Overland Park in 2004, and loved spending my evenings at Doc Fuller's open mikes (the Peanut & Peanut north). I certainly do miss hearing him, Alan White, Jeanne & Jenny.

Cheers.

- Richard

I havent been to the peanut...watching gay men dance with each other isnt my thing.























just kidding...I was there the night when the TV exploded.

[guitar junkie]

Yup panning and reverb is what can make vocals sound cleaner, L R and Center works great as well as M/S encoding but I don't wanna blow your mind yet...

In all honesty a good quiet preamp can be made to sound many ways it's the noise issues that always kill me...

Save the money and buy something really nice, but if you must buy something than a a DMP3 might well serve you some use.

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by witzendoz

You have not mentioned the acoustics of where you record, it could be that as you layer the acoustics of you space are adding to the mud.

If your recording space has no acoustic treatment maybe you should budget to improve the space before buying more gear. A small amount spent in this area can improve recordings heaps.

Cheers

Alan.

It's pretty much impossible to make anything sound good in a bad room no matter how good you are or how great your equipment is. A small, untreated room will definitely sound muddy.

Frank

[Shadow_7]

The mobile pre is not that best thing out there. I have one. I pretty much only use it to interface my laptop with my stereo system. To record from a tape player, or just to capture things off of a radio. My Delta 44 is way better. And my Korg MR-1000 is way better than the 44. If I were to quantize it, it'd be like Mobile Pre is 60% as good as the 44. And the 44 is 40% as good as the MR-1000. Rough guesstimates anyway.

To phrase it another way. When I got the Mobile Pre, it was like cool I can do this stuff now. When I got my Delta 44 I was like holy cow my CDs never sounded so good. When I got my Korg MR-1000, I was like CDs suck. Where can I buy DVD-A's.

[expatCanuck]

I ended up buying a used combo: Symetrix SX202 & Delta 44.
Seems to work pretty well. Here's a clip from the maiden voyage:
vocals --> SM57 --> SX202 --> Delta 44 --> Audacity --> .wav --> .mp3 (via LAME)
SM57test-GoldenRibbonsRefrain.mp3

Sounds one heck of a lot nicer than through the mobilePre.

I just love cheap & effective.

- Richard
oldWithoutMoney.com