Sound Absorption... HELP?

[emergencyexit]

I am a 19 year old song writer/pianist/bassist who has been recording in a suburb outside of boston for 4+ years. 3 years ago I built 5 bass traps via ethan winers web site in my 40x30 live room, and we mixed in a concrete 15x15 box covered in the corners and all the direct reflecting spots with OC-703 rigid fiberglass. We had a budget at that point considering our age and lack of time for work aside from high school. Because of our location we had no need for isolation aside from the concrete mixing box (which i now understand is a terrible location for mixing)

I am going to Berklee next year and moving into the bottom apartment in a three story Building in Brighton. Unfortunately I believe the building lays on the end of two identical connected Apartment complexes owned by different landlords. The place is a spacious 3 bedroom with a huge living room and kitchen. I don't know the dimensions yet. The drummer is moving in with me and would like to be able to practice at reasonable hours. I'm sure that playing during the day will be fine with the neighbors but I would like to tone down on as much of the noise as possible. Luckily the walls of his room only touch other walls in our apartment or the outside of the building. So basically we have no side neighbors. We are thinking about converting his room into a fo-drum booth. Obviously its not a real booth because we can't do anything permanent like double the drywall or build a room with in a room. We do have a decent amount of money to spend though.

I'm no genius when it comes to acoustics but I believe that the most cost effective solution would be to try to get rid of most of the low frequencies via bass traps. I figure if I build a riser for the drums that is just a 5x6x1 sealed reverberating box and place 3" 703 about half way between the top and bottom that should do a decent amount. Essentially it would be a huge bass trap for him to play on. The box would be raised above the floor with rubber feet. I will also be sealing the back to the 5 bass traps I have and placing them in back of this drum riser a few inches away from the back wall in his room. My third Idea is to hang 3" 703 about half a foot from the ceiling. I believe the room is a 15x20 and I know that the drummer will be willing to give up at least half of it for sound absorption My question is, could anyone suggest a better method for this? Do I need the drum riser or is it kind of useless with the other traps and the dropped ceiling? Does someone have a completely different idea that may work better? Am I being a complete idiot?

Since I do not live there yet I do not have any further information about the place. I just would like to start building soon while I still have a place to do it.

Thank you,
Ben

[emergencyexit]

Anyone? Please?

[JuliánFernández]

All you wanna learn is right here:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/

Enjoy!

[apl]

I think you're pretty much on track. I would not seal the back of the bass traps you have.

[emergencyexit]

Thanks apl. I took a look at John's site and realized that I did most of my research there 3 years ago when I made my original bass traps. The only problem with his site is that he mostly offers permanent solutions. I CAN NOT AFFORD TO LOOSE MY SECURITY DEPOSIT. So I can not afford to do anything permanent. I am wondering however, would it benefit me to include cinderblocks in some part of this drum riser? I know they are extremely dense and in most cases the only way to fully isolate in a multi unit building.

Please help me out?

Ben

[Norris Shepherd]

I really want to help you out.. but unfortunately there's no way to change the laws of physics.

I think that setting up the drums as you described, might help some, but it is in no way going to soundproof the room.

Bass traps are to treat the acoustics in a room, and really don't do much to sound proof.

If I'm getting this right, your primary concern is soundproofing the area to be able to not disturb you neighbors? I'm not trying to be negative, but i just don't think there is a magic/cheap/inexpensive/non-permanent solution to what you are trying to do.

http://www.acoustics101.com/basics.asp

There is a link to a good pdf booklet at that site, and it covers a lot on soundproofing.

Might need to start thinking of different options..... electric drums? a practice space elsewhere?

[Supercreep]

Norris is right. Isolation and treatment are two different things.

Something to keep in mind: Building a drum booth that has satisfactory isolation requires a lot of mass. Also, it has to be airtight. Think of it like a fishtank - it doesn't matter where the hole is or how big it is. It is going to leak.

Bass trapping will help the drums sound good in the room.

Bass trapping will do nothing to isolate your neighbors from your drums.

[apl]

Originally Posted by Supercreep

Bass trapping will do nothing to isolate your neighbors from your drums.

If you have a source of given sound power in a reverberant room, the sound pressure level will be higher than the same source in an absorbant room. The transmission out of the room is a function of the sound pressure level, so adding absorption will have a marginal helpful effect on what gets through the wall.

[emergencyexit]

I'm not looking to completely isolate as i know it is impossible with non-permanent solutions. I believe I stated this before. I am not looking for it to be cheap, as I also stated. I am willing to construct something.

With that said I have been doing a decent amount of reading from my dad's MIT physics textbook. From what I understand the apartment is a bottom floor membrane in a three story building. That wooden membrane is split into almost 6 equal parts (2x3). One of the middle two rooms will be used for playing drums. I would like to reduce the waves enough to make it tolerable during the day when there are no laws about playing. I think cement or something with a lot of mass (possibly cinderblocks) could take care of anything transmitting into the floor. The rectangle traps would be for mid frequencies as well as mid-low into the ground. Ethan's traps surrounding for more low mid absorption. And a floating ceiling. I think that may do a decent amount. It's a shit load of thick 703 to do nothing and a good amount of concrete. I understand its not airtight from the houses original membrane but give me a brake I can't do anything to that extreme... and it will at least sound a lot nicer.

No one but APL has at least read what I am trying to do or what I can't do before writing something.

Thank you for helping
Ben

[Norris Shepherd]

Sounds like you already know what you are doing.

Apl is the only one who agreed with you. is that why you think he is the only one who read your post?

Looks like you are looking for validation and not information or opinions.

Good luck.

[emergencyexit]

Originally Posted by Norris Shepherd

I'm not trying to be negative, but i just don't think there is a magic/cheap/inexpensive/non-permanent solution to what you are trying to do.

I never mentioned inexpensive cheap or magic. Only non-permanent. Thats why I believe you didn't read it.

Ben

[dconnell]

EmergencyExit,
Have you thought about using a drum isolation booth? They can help reduce sound levels by 60-70%. Check this one out at http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=REG&A=details
There are other models out there, just google drum isolation booths. Hope this helps.

[emergencyexit]

Thank you Dconnell,

I had thought of building my own isolation booth. These models look great but I have no idea how well they work. My question is would something like this be better to build? Would I be able to possibly get better results for less money? Although I have no budget I'm not trying to throw money away.

Ben

[Supercreep]

Originally Posted by emergencyexit

I'm not looking to completely isolate as i know it is impossible with non-permanent solutions. I believe I stated this before. I am not looking for it to be cheap, as I also stated. I am willing to construct something.

With that said I have been doing a decent amount of reading from my dad's MIT physics textbook. From what I understand the apartment is a bottom floor membrane in a three story building. That wooden membrane is split into almost 6 equal parts (2x3). One of the middle two rooms will be used for playing drums. I would like to reduce the waves enough to make it tolerable during the day when there are no laws about playing. I think cement or something with a lot of mass (possibly cinderblocks) could take care of anything transmitting into the floor. The rectangle traps would be for mid frequencies as well as mid-low into the ground. Ethan's traps surrounding for more low mid absorption. And a floating ceiling. I think that may do a decent amount. It's a shit load of thick 703 to do nothing and a good amount of concrete. I understand its not airtight from the houses original membrane but give me a brake I can't do anything to that extreme... and it will at least sound a lot nicer.

No one but APL has at least read what I am trying to do or what I can't do before writing something.

Thank you for helping
Ben

First, let me say that I read everything you wrote, and I'm a little insulted by your assertion otherwise. You asked for opinions, and you're going to get them. What you are not going to get is a bunch of gladhanding and rote congratulations.

You have not thought this through.

Ben, does your dad's physics textbook say anything about structural integrity?

The amount of mass you will need to add to make a difference is significant. Think about it before you add tonnage to an upper story room and risk catastrophic collapse. I would consult an engineer before I constructed anything like that.

Keep in mind that doing something like that could be a violation of building codes in your area, and that an accident that results from such activity will likely not be covered by any insurance. Do you think your landlord would approve?

As much as I would love to "give you a brake", I'm not going to lie to you.

You are not going to achieve significant isolation, and you are going to waste a lot of money.

If you are unlucky, somebody could get evicted, hurt or killed.

[Supercreep]

Originally Posted by apl

If you have a source of given sound power in a reverberant room, the sound pressure level will be higher than the same source in an absorbant room. The transmission out of the room is a function of the sound pressure level, so adding absorption will have a marginal helpful effect on what gets through the wall.

Well, he could also put a freakin' couch in the room. That would also have a marginally helpful effect. We're talking about acoustic drums, buddy.

[apl]

Originally Posted by Supercreep

Well, he could also put a freakin' couch in the room. That would also have a marginally helpful effect. We're talking about acoustic drums, buddy.

Yeah, I know. If he treats the room the drums his neighbors hear won't be as loud and will sound better, lol.

But, yeah, it's hard to isolate it. We can hear our neighbors drum and we're in separate houses.

[emergencyexit]

Originally Posted by Supercreep

First, let me say that I read everything you wrote, and I'm a little insulted by your assertion otherwise. You asked for opinions, and you're going to get them. What you are not going to get is a bunch of gladhanding and rote congratulations.

You have not thought this through.

Ben, does your dad's physics textbook say anything about structural integrity?

The amount of mass you will need to add to make a difference is significant. Think about it before you add tonnage to an upper story room and risk catastrophic collapse. I would consult an engineer before I constructed anything like that.

Keep in mind that doing something like that could be a violation of building codes in your area, and that an accident that results from such activity will likely not be covered by any insurance. Do you think your landlord would approve?

As much as I would love to "give you a brake", I'm not going to lie to you.

You are not going to achieve significant isolation, and you are going to waste a lot of money.

If you are unlucky, somebody could get evicted, hurt or killed.

Well proof you didn't read. NOT AN UPPER STORY APARTMENT! NOT LOOKING FOR COMPLETE ISOLATION. I understand I can not get results like that due to my conditions. I AM NOT GOING TO BUILD ANYTHING IN THE FUCKING APARTMENT. Already said that, it would be nice if you would read it.

I'm not looking for you to tell me I'm doing a great job. I'm looking for solutions and you have offered none in terms of acoustic drums. You seem to only be telling me that I should give up and throw my fucking drummer and his drum set out the window. You are being negative before even trying to help AT ALL.

Now i will repeat myself. I know I can not isolate the drums. I KNOW I CAN NOT ISOLATE THE DRUMS! I KNOW I CAN NOT ISOLATE THEM. jeez.

The facts:

The building is brick on the outside. I'm sure bricks have at least a little mass. Actually the absorption coefficients on john's site say they absorb quite a bit. It is a first story apartment. It is the only one on it's floor. NO SIDE NEIGHBORS. I am trying to make it so that the upstairs neighbors don't kill me when he practices during the day. I am living at my parents house and can build something here to move there when I move the other furniture. ITS NOT ILLEGAL TO MOVE FURNITURE INTO AN APARTMENT. I am not going to make anything I can't move WHETHER OR NOT IT WILL HAVE THE MOST POSSIBLE ISOLATION. I'm not fucking 40 years old with my own place and I am not running a business out of this apartment so I have no need for complete isolation. And I am certainly not hiding this from the neighbors. Supercreep you have no desire to help. You do however have a desire to be as negative as possible with out understanding the situation after overlooking posts... CLEARLY. Stay away from this thread asshole.

With that said, I looked at those Clearsonic rooms. They are made of plexi glass and I doubt that they will isolate anything being so light and skinny. It doesn't even look like they seal. Assuming I am wrong however there is no way that micing a drumset will sound anything in one of those. Does anyone own one and would they tell me if I am completely wrong about them. $2000 is a lot to spend on something that won't work at all.

[Supercreep]

Originally Posted by emergencyexit

I'm not looking for you to tell me I'm doing a great job. I'm looking for solutions and you have offered none in terms of acoustic drums. You seem to only be telling me that I should give up and throw my fucking drummer and his drum set out the window. You are being negative before even trying to help AT ALL.

Calm down, little man.

Originally Posted by emergencyexit

I am living at my parents house and can build something here to move there when I move the other furniture. ITS NOT ILLEGAL TO MOVE FURNITURE INTO AN APARTMENT. I am not going to make anything I can't move WHETHER OR NOT IT WILL HAVE THE MOST POSSIBLE ISOLATION. I'm not fucking 40 years old with my own place and I am not running a business out of this apartment so I have no need for complete isolation. And I am certainly not hiding this from the neighbors.

Great.

Originally Posted by emergencyexit

Supercreep you have no desire to help. You do however have a desire to be as negative as possible with out understanding the situation after overlooking posts... CLEARLY. Stay away from this thread asshole.

Sorry I misunderstood your post.

I was trying to help, as evidenced by me appearing in your thread and addressing your questions in the first place.

I'm sure everything will work out great. Good luck.

[The549]

I was reading through my dad's (the President, Obama) Harvard books lately and it said, "relax, man".

You're in that unique situation for people here where you have a bit of time and money to make something but no real ability to change locations, right? Anyways, try your idea as long as it's safe, and let us know what happens.

[michaelst]

Seriously...

With what you are suggesting regrading adding to the acoustic isolation capabilites of a temporary college apartment, you'd really be better off getting some good electronic drums, some isolation headphones, and a good set of monitors (to let others hear and impress chicks).

That way, when the neighbors are away you can crank em, and when they're not, slip on the headphones, or turn down and everyones happy.

[mshilarious]

OK, here's a fourth opinion, coming from someone who has designed and had built two studios after tearing off drywall to bare studs: absorption will do very little to provide transmission loss between rooms. Some, yes, but that some isn't much. If you covered the entire ceiling with 4" thick rigid fiberglass, it might be about as good as a layer of drywall, but it would cost a lot more (it would greatly improve acoustics inside the studio however). Anything short of that, I would not be expecting much.

Let's try some math: 4" of rigid fiberglass has an absorption coefficient of less than 0.75 at frequencies less than 125Hz. How much is hard to say; the published numbers include edge effects and are measured in a reverberation chamber, you are trying to stop sound that is an octave lower, etc. But let's say 0.75 is accurate for transmission loss (which it probably isn't). dB = 20 * log (1 - 0.75) = -12dB. That's absolute best case scenario of covering your entire ceiling with 4" of rigid fiberglass.

So if your existing ceiling has transmission loss of say 40dB, now you have 52dB. The kick drum hits will probably sound at least at 50dB above. That's not really a problem in the daytime for people that aren't bothered easily, but maybe your neighbor will be one of those type that likes to complain. In any event, it will be too loud for sleepytime.

As for hanging panels or partially covering the ceiling, try this experiment: crank some tune with pumpin' bass through your sub. Get a pair of earmuffs, or maybe some headphones that aren't plugged in. Hold them about 1" off of your ears, and compare that sound with the earmuffs off. Hear much difference in the low end? That's about what absorption will get you.

Since you are mainly concerned with transmission upwards, what mainly matters is how the ceiling and ceiling/wall joints are constructed and what the floor material above is. You cannot change either of those, so you'll just have to see how bad it is.

The plexiglass shields are for live use; they keep other musicians from getting deafened by nearby loud instruments. They really only need be effective in the 1kHz and up range, because we aren't particularly bothered by loud low-frequency sounds; it's the high-mids to highs that are especially damaging to hearing. A plexi shield will do nothing to increase transmission loss of low frequencies upwards in a studio.

[Chili]

Tell your drummer to buy a set of practice pads.

That is all, dismissed!!

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

3 years ago I built 5 bass traps via ethan winers web site in my 40x30 live room

Ok, you built 5 bass traps for your 40x30 live room?Hmmm, ok, lets move on...

we mixed in a concrete 15x15 box covered in the corners and all the direct reflecting spots with OC-703 rigid fiberglass

Hmmmm, ok, now you are saying you not ONLY built 5 bass traps, but also had 703 "in the corners"...(ie...bass traps. which if were ALL IN THE CORNERS would amount to ...lets figure this out....in the vertical corners...that would be four MORE bass traps....and in the wall/ceiling intersections...that would ALSO be 4 MORE bass traps...for a total of EIGHT more. Four, at a nominal 96" height, and four...FIFTEEN FEET LONG at the ceiling. Good for you.

Ok, gottcha, you had all the low frequency modal termination intersections covered..in your concrete 15x15 mixing box...

and all the direct reflecting spots with OC-703 rigid fiberglass

sounds like you knew what you were doing.

We had a budget at that point

I would think you did, considring you are 19, with a 30x40 live room and a 15x15 concrete control room...both treated "fairly" intuitively.

I am going to Berklee next year and moving into the bottom apartment in a three story Building in Brighton.

Cool. Berkley is a cool place for a 19 year old to exploit the wonders of knowlege.

The drummer is moving in with me and would like to be able to practice at reasonable hours. I'm sure that playing during the day will be fine with the neighbors but I would like to tone down on as much of the noise as possible.

Ahhh yes. Drummers. Apartments. I smell a challange coming.

Unfortunately I believe the building lays on the end of two identical connected Apartment complexes owned by different landlords.

I knew it was coming.
Yes, that is unfortunate.

Luckily the walls of his room only touch other walls in our apartment or the outside of the building

Lets see, thats "one" for the negative team and "one" for the positive. Its neck and neck folks....ok...

So basically we have no side neighbors.

Whoa!..
the positive is pulling ahead.

We are thinking about converting his room into a fo-drum booth

fo-drum???? Never heard that term before. Is that sort of a "quasi"
drum room?

Obviously its not a real booth because we can't do anything permanent like double the drywall or build a room with in a room.

Yes, obviously. Ok thats the challange, right?

We do have a decent amount of money to spend though.

Define "decent amount" vs what you have in mind. See below.

I'm no genius when it comes to acoustics but I believe that the most cost effective solution would be to try to get rid of most of the low frequencies via bass traps.

Your belief is incorrect. Absorption only reduces REFLECTION back into the space. Just because an absorption material achieves this to a greater or lesser degree, does NOT mean the energy/pressure from IMPACT sounds on boundary surfaces behind them have been "absorbed".

I figure if I build a riser for the drums that is just a 5x6x1 sealed reverberating box and place 3" 703 about half way between the top and bottom that should do a decent amount.Essentially it would be a huge bass trap for him to play on.

No, essentially, it would ba a huge drum.

In essence, what you are suggesting is to INCREASE the size of a sound generating membrane. Impact noise from the drums will actually excite the membrane and INCREASE the amplitude via resonace of the box OUTWARD.
This is EXACTLY how stages work.

A "riser" soulution in this context should be a SOLID mass. ie..a concrete slab...which considering you are on a ground floor, in all probability IS
concrete.

The box would be raised above the floor with rubber feet.

Yes, decoupling is wise.

Although, to eleminate structural transmission, decoupling the mass is the correct way to go, but "properly" decoupling a slab would require accurate calculations to determine the "compression" ratio for pads such as Sylomer or neoprene, as the correct compression is what makes this type of decoupling work. Also, if neoprene is used, you need to know the "duro"(hardness)
rating. Sylomer is already color coded for each rating.

However, considering you said:

I AM NOT GOING TO BUILD ANYTHING IN THE FUCKING APARTMENT.

well, I guess the riser idea is out.

My third Idea is to hang 3" 703 about half a foot from the ceiling

For what? Are you recording the drums? Yes, this will help with reflections, but do nothing for transmission loss through the ceiling.

I believe the room is a 15x20 and I know that the drummer will be willing to give up at least half of it for sound absorption

Thats a LOT of 703. How deep are your pockets?
And after you've spent your wad, what garuntee do you have that it will do the trick.

Do I need the drum riser or is it kind of useless with the other traps and the dropped ceiling?

If the existing floor is concrete, purchase a 6x6 area of this type material with a plywood or MDF subfloor material placed on top. However, this will do nothing for impact
sound that reaches room boundarys via the air.

http://www.acousticbooth-studiobox.c...insulation.php

Does someone have a completely different idea that may work better?

1.

Tell your drummer to buy a set of practice pads.

2.

you'd really be better off getting some good electronic drums, some isolation headphones

3. Let your drummer figure it out.
4. Tell him to play quietly.
5 Ask your neighbors to ignor it if they complain or they are imagining it.
6. Rent a rehearsal room.
7. Tell your drummer to move.
8. Trust the bricks. Although I'm a little confused by this..

NO SIDE NEIGHBORS.

9. Accept this..

I KNOW I CAN NOT ISOLATE THE DRUMS!

10

Anyways, try your idea as long as it's safe, and let us know what happens.

think you're pretty much on track. I would not seal the back of the bass traps you have.

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. yessssereee. good one apl. That'll really wrap this one up. Say, did you ever build your "heat your house with your dryer duct" project?




btw..

We're talking about acoustic drums, buddy.

Now were gettin down to brass tacks.

Supercreep you have no desire to help.

CLEARLY. Stay away from this thread asshole.

Hmmm, Supercreep gave the best advice possible and hes an asshole? geeeezus kid. What part of "acoustic drums"/apartment don't you understand? fuck, I don't think Berkley's gonna
help ya

But this might.
http://www.acousticbooth-studiobox.c...insulation.php

but give me a brake

Good luck.

[Erockrazor]

Originally Posted by Chili

Tell your drummer to buy a set of practice pads.

That is all, dismissed!!

Seriously, that will probably cost you just as much as any room treatment would and will actually solve the problem. That sounds like the best bet at the cost of some of the drums "feeling".

Does he play drums at Berkeley? Then he can practice drums in their rehearsal spaces which I'm sure there should be plenty.

Good luck!