Instead of a booth

[gethypedmusic]

Instead of making a seperate booth from my mixing room. With the proper acoustical treatment... can I use my mixing room as the recording room as well?

With some Owens Corning 703.... Bass traps and acoustical foam properly placed? Or Is a seperate room going to give me better results?

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello again. Well, day before yesterday, I had a reply almost ready to post, but at the last minute, I decided to look at your latest pics with the diagrams drawn on the pics. No sooner than I clicked on one of your pictures.....BAM!! A fucking VIRUS called "bloodhound" infected my whole drive. BASTARDS!! Had to completely reformat my drive, load everything again, not to mention loosing about 4 hrs of drawings on Sketchup that I hadn't backed up. Thats the last time I'll ever look at PHOTOBUCKET again!

Ok, here was my reply from the other day.

Ditto. Except one thing. And that one thing is worse than a small booth when it comes to tracking(in my opinion )....and thats HEADPHONES! The WHOLE point of monitoring over speakers while the talent is in a space isolated from the monitors...is to HEAR what it actually sounds like on speakers...WHILE YOU TRACK! You can't "fix it in the mix", if the tracks sound like shit in the first place. I'd rather have a booth while tracking, than having to monitor on headphones(The mic is in the same room as the monitors when using gobos), at least for the type music you are recording(at least hiphop). R&B uses much more frequency range than hip hop, but...that wouldn't be a problem IF the space is treated correctly. And thats the key.

The OTHER side of the coin is your "control room" side monitoring geometry/acoustics. If your monitoring space LIES to you,...then the whole ball of wax is a lesson in guesswork anyway. Everytime you mix, you have to try it out on 2 or 3 other systems/rooms/cars just to find out if it is translating the way you think it SHOULD, vs a control room that TELLS YOU THE TRUTH from the getgo, and you learn to trust. Same for headphones. You'll NEVER get the truth from them. And once the track is finished, its finished. Theres no going back, especially if the performance was fantastic, only to be ruined by bad monitoring decisions. Hence my choice of a booth over gobos.
However, KineticSound makes a strong case for gobos. I think this whole decision would be based on how you are used to recording. I'd submit, that because you are ALREADY recording in the same space as the artist is performing, you are probably using headphones already, and have grown accustomed to what it will sound like over speakers, no? But...then again, if you've never had the opportunity to monitor over speakers WHILE the performance is taking place...you're missing something.

Anyway, it sounds like you are dead set for having a booth. but I thought I'd toss my .02 in the ring.

Ok, I finally get online again...only to find this post. Oh well. Ok, tell ya what.
I already told you what I'd do. But thats me. If you want to record in the same room as the artist performance, so be it. You're already doing it. Now for the solutions. First, post a diagram with the dimensions of the room, and then I'll show you what "I" would do. Fair enough?
fitZ

[gethypedmusic]

Is there some fan site for you Rick? Cuz your the man. I only got the idea to do the SAME ROOM thing from your post on the other guys thread where you made a diagram for him!

My room is 12 Foot By 15 Foot! -This doesnt include closet Which Ill close : )
And 8 feet in towards the sky

My computer desk that my monitors and computer sit on is 5 foot ten inches wide by 2 feet even

: D any more info you need?
Ill gladly take more pictures!

And im so sorry about the photo bucket thing that is horrible! At least your back!

[gethypedmusic]

Also... how do i directly post pictures on here so I don't have to make anyone go back to photobucket : )

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Ok, here is what "I" would do. This particular solution is based on my arbitrary decision which axis to place the 12'x15' dimensions, which was based on my memory from the Photobucket pics. I didn't want to go back and look again at the risk of getting another virus This is just a test. If this is the correct axis and you are further interested in how to build this, feel free to ask. I'll post complete plans. However I REALLY need some detailed dimensions, which I'll post another drawing showing what I need to know. In the mean time, this generally shows what I had in mind. Oh, about the window..forget it. Use a cam and your computer if need be. You really don't need it, and the cost of the glass that would match the Transmission Loss
of the wall assembly I have in mind would be not only cost prohibitive for this type of temporary project, but the installation would be a bitch. This wall assembly is actually modules that can be built very simply, and removable. More on that if this idea interests you.
Anyway, this is the general idea.
fitZ
ps...the last two are sections through the room.

[gethypedmusic]

I dont know how you do all that man but that's amazing. I posted a couple threads and asked questions around the web and people were saying doing the mixing room in the recording room would be ok if properly treated... possibly better than a booth at all... plus it would be easier to just pick up and go : )

I'm sorry to keep changing it up on your Rick! Lol I really am. But in a 12 x 15' room where would you place the OC 703? 6" in the corners? and 4" all around the room spaced about 4" from the walls with wall mounts? : )


Heres the room:
< 12' > Door V
__________.....__
l.......................l ^
l.......................l 15'
l.......................l V
l.......................l
l.......................l __
l...........................l
l...........................l < ---- Closet
l.......................__l
l.......................l
l_____........____l
------l____l <------- Window With Place for setting stuff



Appreciate it man! Srry again about the photobucket thing! I didn't know.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

people were saying doing the mixing room in the recording room would be ok if properly treated... possibly better than a booth at all...

Mixing room in the recording room? Mixing is always done in the same room as the "recording room". Unless you are refering to a "performance" room as the recording room. I always refer to the difference as a CONTROL ROOM and STUDIO. RECORDING is done in the Control room via recording devices. Mic'ing a performance is done in a Studio, booth, OR a control room. Just to clarify so we're on the SAME page

But yea, I said in my original post(on the other thread) that I "agreed" with Kineticsound about using gobo type absorbers vs a booth. And I STILL do, regardless of my preference for a booth/monitors vs recording in the control room via HEADPHONES. I agreed with him mainly, because you are NOT making a permanent home for a studio, but setting up a temporary environment. I just drew the previous set of drawings IF you were dead set on having a booth.

plus it would be easier to just pick up and go : )

Agreed. And cheaper.

I'm sorry to keep changing it up on your Rick! Lol I really am.

No problem. Drawings are always usefull to other projects. Actually, I have quite a few of these "quicky" sketchs that I can modify with ease. Yours actually came from one I did for another guy. Just STRETCH and
MOVE components. Actual detail drawings for construction take much longer and many more views. So, don't worry about it.( see...I'm not such an OGRE afterall!)

But in a 12 x 15' room where would you place the OC 703? 6" in the corners? and 4" all around the room spaced about 4" from the walls with wall mounts? : )

Give me a day and I'll be back with a diagram. I'm still busy reformating my computer. Actually, this whole affair forced me to install 2 new hardrives that been sitting around for a month. Almost done.

Appreciate it man!

Thats what I care about.

[gethypedmusic]

I feel horrible that you have to reformat and reinstall and RE DO everything to your computer. But i also dont wanna bring it up cuz then we will all rememeber whos fault it was

I'm on here 24 hours a day consistantly pressing F5 to see if i got any replies on this so noone feels like Im asking questions and not paying attention : )

Thanks for clarifying the mixing room/ control room situation. Now I won't look so dumb with the studio terms : )

Rick thanks again for everything can't wait to see the next sketch ; )

-HyPe

[Dogbreath]

sooo...F5 is like "refresh"??? hmmm cool. Learn somethin new everyday.

About the room, bein a 1 man band (like alot of guys on here ) I do everything in my one room. roughly 14' by 20'...ish and I treated it with bass traps in the corners to the right and left of my mixing station, the back wall and another one at the roof/wall corner.
I put some diffusors in front of my mixing station extending a little past where each monitor is and about the same heighth as the monitors.

And don't forget the lava lamp.

[gethypedmusic]

Originally Posted by Dogbreath

sooo...F5 is like "refresh"??? hmmm cool. Learn somethin new everyday.

About the room, bein a 1 man band (like alot of guys on here ) I do everything in my one room. roughly 14' by 20'...ish and I treated it with bass traps in the corners to the right and left of my mixing station, the back wall and another one at the roof/wall corner.
I put some diffusors in front of my mixing station extending a little past where each monitor is and about the same heighth as the monitors.

And don't forget the lava lamp.

Ya im gonna bass trap the crap outta the room haha. And do whatever else rick says to do. I just bought some Yamaha HS80s 2 days ago now I have everything i need as far as gear goes. Now all i need is the treatment and Its on!!!!!!!!

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Here ya go. Instead of a booth No time now, but I'll be back with instructions.

[gethypedmusic]

Whoah! That's freaking amazing!!!!! Instructions and I'm set. Just tell me what(i need) where(to put it) and how to utilize it properly! DANG RICK. Thats freakin awesome. My roommate is freaking out too after I showed him this haha. Thanks again man!

Like I sent u in a message for that 814 spinglass to see if it's okay just let me know if I can use that or not. Or w/e I need. Also How do I make those stands that go around the mic. And holders for the bass traps on the ceilings corners : ) I have plans for wall mounts already from another thread I read on here that puts the treatment 4 1/2" from the wall mounted!

Thanks Man : )

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello hypE. Glad you like it. Ok, give me a day or two, and I'll post COMPLETE plans on building everything. Even a desk if you want. Later dude. Havta take care of my better half now. Taking her out for dinner..you know..and THEN...hahahahahahaha!
fitZ

[gethypedmusic]

Originally Posted by RICK FITZPATRICK

Hello hypE. Glad you like it. Ok, give me a day or two, and I'll post COMPLETE plans on building everything. Even a desk if you want. Later dude. Havta take care of my better half now. Taking her out for dinner..you know..and THEN...hahahahahahaha!
fitZ

HAHAHAAH. Ya man I KNOW what you mean. Gotta do what you gotta do! Ttyl man! Have fun! Thanks!

[Dogbreath]

Nice work Rick. I'm impressed.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Nice work Rick. I'm impressed

Thank you. In reality, Sketchup makes this kind of stuff real easy. At least once you get the hang of it and have a few files to work with. Plus, the Sketchup 3d warehouse is freaking amazing. You can find damn near anything you need, and simply click a button and download the model directly into the model you're working on. Saves tons of time and energy. I downloaded the chair, monitors, mixer, keyboard etc...well, you get my drift.

Ok hype, I have some questions for you. I'm ready to draw some instructional diagrams, but I need to know some stuff first.

1. Can you call SPI, and see if they have any "Knauf " 3lb density rigid fiberglass in 2", 3" or 4" thick 4'x10' panels. This is what I bought from them so I know they carry it. If not in stock, can they get it from another of their warehouses. It would be far better to get this size and cut it. I've never heard of the brand you mentioned. If you can't get the Knauf brand, ask the people at SPI, IF, the brand you mentioned is 3 lb per cubic foot density.


2. What kind of building skills do you have? Ever used power tools? Do you have any? Do you have any tools at all? The reason is simple. There are many ways to do simple things, so I have to match my descriptions to your skill level and tool availability.

3. Where do you live? Is there a Homedepot kind of place around your vicinity? What about a "picture framing" business? I have a specific reason for that one. How bout any kind of thrift stores, or junk recycling place? Again, specific reasons. Any Walmart type places, or fabric places?

4. Do you have a garage big enough to lay out 4'x8' or so panels for cutting?

5. What is you budget for this project?

6. Do you have available help, for manuvering panels etc?

7. Who owns this building your studio is in? Will they let you fasten things to the walls/ceilings?

8. Are there any lights on the ceiling?

9. I need some specific dimensions of this room. I've posted a pic of what dimensions I need. Please refer to them by the letter assigned and measure them.

10. What kind of room is adjacent to the opening by the closet.

11. I assume the door leads to a hallway. Is that correct?

Or Is a seperate room going to give me better results?

13. Is there an available room to use as a booth? I gave the reason before...heaphone monitoring vs monitoring over speakers. If you record in the same room as the artists are performing in, you MUST USE HEADPHONES..which means you are GUESSING at the actual sound you are recording untill you play it back. Headphones lie to you. When you monitor over speakers, you can HEAR the mic placement problems...ie...comb filtering. Which is the main reason home recordings do not sound pro. Sure, treatment helps, but mic placement of even a few inches can make a world of difference. And you can't distinguish it over headphones very well.


14. Any environmental noise that affects when you record? Any in-house noise?

Ok, that should keep you busy for a day or two

Here is a list of handtools you will need.

Utility knife/blades
Scissors.
Tape measure.
Framing square and typical tri-square.
a few hand clamps(the handiest are these
http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-21175/Detail
get them in a 4 pack at Tru value for $2
also some of these..http://www.irwin.com/irwin/consumer/...IrwinCat100033

you can usually find a bag of these at various hardware stores for under $5. They come in various sizes.

Glue gun/ and glue rods. I get my glue guns a Walmart or Kmart for 6-$7...usually a Stanley. And get a bag of 1/2"x12" gluesticks at Walmart for $5. Or maybe even home depot. You will use a lot of this glue.
Hammer
Drill and bits/drivers ( best is a small cordless drill and a few small bits from 1/16" to 1/4". Drivers are sold in bulk at most hardwarestores.
Pliers, wire cutters.
Electric knife(got mine at a thrift store for $2
Skill saw of some sort with a good carbide blade.
Electric or hand stapler. Preferably and electric that uses T-50 staples.
Small cheap CHOP saw.

It would be great if you had access to a table saw. Or know someone who
can cut some stuff for you. Especially a panel of plywood(1/4" through 3/4")

Anyway, I'm outta time for the day. Get back to me as soon as possible.
I'll have more questions then.
fitZ

[gethypedmusic]

Originally Posted by RICK FITZPATRICK

Thank you. In reality, Sketchup makes this kind of stuff real easy. At least once you get the hang of it and have a few files to work with. Plus, the Sketchup 3d warehouse is freaking amazing. You can find damn near anything you need, and simply click a button and download the model directly into the model you're working on. Saves tons of time and energy. I downloaded the chair, monitors, mixer, keyboard etc...well, you get my drift.

Ok hype, I have some questions for you. I'm ready to draw some instructional diagrams, but I need to know some stuff first.

1. Can you call SPI, and see if they have any "Knauf " 3lb density rigid fiberglass in 2", 3" or 4" thick 4'x10' panels. This is what I bought from them so I know they carry it. If not in stock, can they get it from another of their warehouses. It would be far better to get this size and cut it. I've never heard of the brand you mentioned. If you can't get the Knauf brand, ask the people at SPI, IF, the brand you mentioned is 3 lb per cubic foot density.

*****I called SPI and they said they don't carry the Knauf in THIS region so they referred me to Diversified Insulation who carries Knauf. I called and spoke to someone and they only sell it in 2 x 4' sheets and they are 11.35 2" a sheet. About the same as the 814 spinglass and OC 703 : )


2. What kind of building skills do you have? Ever used power tools? Do you have any? Do you have any tools at all? The reason is simple. There are many ways to do simple things, so I have to match my descriptions to your skill level and tool availability.

*****I have power tools and a team of people to help me that are exp. for $20 haha.

3. Where do you live? Is there a Homedepot kind of place around your vicinity? What about a "picture framing" business? I have a specific reason for that one. How bout any kind of thrift stores, or junk recycling place? Again, specific reasons. Any Walmart type places, or fabric places?

*****I have Home Depot, Lowes, Wal Mart and Craft Stores all within 4 miles of my townhouse.

4. Do you have a garage big enough to lay out 4'x8' or so panels for cutting?

*****Yes I do.

5. What is you budget for this project?

*****$500 Sound good enough? im hoping so.. My roommate just lost his job 2 days ago...

6. Do you have available help, for manuvering panels etc?

*****Yes : )

7. Who owns this building your studio is in? Will they let you fasten things to the walls/ceilings?

*****We can do anything to the townhouse as long as its back the way it was when we moved in when we move out. So yes : )

8. Are there any lights on the ceiling?

*****No there are not.

9. I need some specific dimensions of this room. I've posted a pic of what dimensions I need. Please refer to them by the letter assigned and measure them.

*****
A - 58"

B - 36"

C - 58"

D - 15'

E - 5"

F - 32"



10. What kind of room is adjacent to the opening by the closet.

*****My closet sits over our stairway to come up stairs... On the other side of the closet is the neighbors... I havent heard a peep from them in the 2 months ive lived here

11. I assume the door leads to a hallway. Is that correct?

*****Yes.

13. Is there an available room to use as a booth? I gave the reason before...heaphone monitoring vs monitoring over speakers. If you record in the same room as the artists are performing in, you MUST USE HEADPHONES..which means you are GUESSING at the actual sound you are recording untill you play it back. Headphones lie to you. When you monitor over speakers, you can HEAR the mic placement problems...ie...comb filtering. Which is the main reason home recordings do not sound pro. Sure, treatment helps, but mic placement of even a few inches can make a world of difference. And you can't distinguish it over headphones very well.

*****Wow I didnt know mic Placement was that dramatic! I'm sure glad your helping me or it wouldn't turn out nearly as good. And no I do not have another room I can monitor in. Just this big room 12' x 15'


14. Any environmental noise that affects when you record? Any in-house noise?

*****Nope. Only when a train passes once a day!


Ok, that should keep you busy for a day or two

*****lol took me 20 minutes : ) I told you I'm on it!!!

Here is a list of handtools you will need.

Utility knife/blades
Scissors.
Tape measure.
Framing square and typical tri-square.
a few hand clamps(the handiest are these
http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-21175/Detail
get them in a 4 pack at Tru value for $2
also some of these..http://www.irwin.com/irwin/consumer/...IrwinCat100033

*****I can aquire all these items easy

you can usually find a bag of these at various hardware stores for under $5. They come in various sizes.

Glue gun/ and glue rods. I get my glue guns a Walmart or Kmart for 6-$7...usually a Stanley. And get a bag of 1/2"x12" gluesticks at Walmart for $5. Or maybe even home depot. You will use a lot of this glue.
Hammer
Drill and bits/drivers ( best is a small cordless drill and a few small bits from 1/16" to 1/4". Drivers are sold in bulk at most hardwarestores.
Pliers, wire cutters.
Electric knife(got mine at a thrift store for $2
Skill saw of some sort with a good carbide blade.
Electric or hand stapler. Preferably and electric that uses T-50 staples.
Small cheap CHOP saw.

It would be great if you had access to a table saw. Or know someone who
can cut some stuff for you. Especially a panel of plywood(1/4" through 3/4")

**** I have people who have these items : )

Anyway, I'm outta time for the day. Get back to me as soon as possible.
I'll have more questions then.
fitZ

Thanks I posted to all of yours above underneath your posts!

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

arrrrrrrrfgggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!$*^*(#$%^%TW$@^$&#E&%#!!!!!! Just discovered my septic tank is full. Gotta deal with this RIGHT NOW! I'll be back as soon as I can There goes another $275 or more. fuck.

[gethypedmusic]

Originally Posted by RICK FITZPATRICK

arrrrrrrrfgggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!$*^*(#$%^%TW$@^$&#E&%#!!!!!! Just discovered my septic tank is full. Gotta deal with this RIGHT NOW! I'll be back as soon as I can There goes another $275 or more. fuck.

Damn. Im I giving off a bad vibe haha! I'm sorry man! Take care of that. Take your time : )

[Dogbreath]

$275.00 !!!!!

Mine cost $600.00

bastards.....what a shitty deal....

[gethypedmusic]

Guess Ricks a hustler AND a pro audio guy haha.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Mine cost $600.00

Just to pump a septic tank???? Talk about a ripoff Did you look for a competitor? I can't believe that. I would have called the CEO a fucking thief! And then filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. Here, if they forget to do ONE SINGLE THING, I can call the Oregon Department of Environmental Protection and THEY KICK ASS. Personally, I think $285(thats what it really cost) is still hiway robbery, considering it took all of 20 minutes, and a dumb ass moron to do it.
I told him they're worse than lawyers.

[Myriad_Rocker]

I wish I was that freakin' good with Sketchup. I totally suck. It takes me an hour just to draw up a floor and a wall.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

It takes me an hour just to draw up a floor and a wall.
__________________

It took me a while to discover the trick to Sketchup. Once you understand a few things...its a breeze. Maybe in a week or two I'll post a small tutorial on basics. Even Sketchups tutorials can be confusing. One of the things that makes it MUCH easier is using decimal numbers for fractions of inches. Here is what I mean.

1/16"=.0625
1/8" = .125
3/16" =.1875
1/4"=.25......etc. I'll post the whole range within 1" if you want.

The next thing to understand is the "default" plane. Its the Green/Red axis plane. If you pick a point in space to draw a rectangle, it will automatically draw it in that plane.

The next is GROUPS/COMPONENTS. EVERYTHING I draw, I make it a group before I alter it. For instance. Draw a rectangle..any size on the Red/Green plane. Pick the SURFACE, and then right click. A menu will come up. Click on "SELECT" and another menu appears. Click on "Bounding edges". The edges will become "highlighted". Now right click on the surface plane again, and another menu will come up. Click on "Make Group". Now you have an "entity" that can be moved, stretched, copied and lots of other things.


This is what I USUALLY do. I make a component made of three planes, ONE FOOT SQUARE(12"x12") This allows me to "lock in" certain commands, and have a visual reference for things. Like "rotate". Without a plane to pick from, it becomes very difficult to rotate things in 3d. You simply pick an "entity to rotate, pick the command rotate, and the "protractor" curser appears. Move it to the plane you want to rotate in, hold your "shift" key, and the protractor cursor remains in the plane. Now pick the point you want to be the center of rotation, and move the curser along an edge relative to this point..usually along the red, green or blue axis. Once you click again, now the protractor can actually rotate the entity in the plane your shift key is holding. Now simply punch in the degree you want to rotate. OR rotate it visually to another reference point and click again. Anyway, I'm out time now. I'll be back.
Here is a few jpg's of something I'm working on for HyPe. I had to rotate, move, hide, and dozens of other commands to get this entity to do what I wanted to show. There are actuall 20 jpgs showing the stages of construction. Here is two of the beginning assembly and two jpgs towards the end of the assembly sequence. I'll be back after I finish drawing the whole series of "absorber construction options. This is only one option of a half dozen or so.





I'll be back with ALL of the options in a day or two.

[Yonce N Mild]

Originally Posted by RICK FITZPATRICK

Maybe in a week or two I'll post a small tutorial on basics.

Please do! I've tried it before and ended up getting pissed off and giving up.

Here's an easy question for you. I draw a square. I want the square to be a certain size. How do I set the size by typing in the dimensions instead of trying to drag it to the exact size I want?