How many overheads do you use?

[The549]

I don't like the idea of using more than one, but on my last recording, my wuhan china was a rabid monster and I'm wondering how to fix that (I fixed it by....playing softer...like how you should ). Here's a big STUFF YOU to the drummer that stole my 22" wuhan china - that was much smoother if not less loud.

What is your cymbal setup, a philosophy statement (how do you try to get/capture some particular cymbal sound?), and how does your micing technique of cymbals work with that?

I have a 4 piece set, with hats, crash, ride, and when recording, a china. I like one mic per drum, and one mic for all cymbals. I don't like big mic setups. Last session I put it directly overhead above the edge of the ride/bass drum on my 4 piece, aimed at the snare drum. Get a great hat sound, crash sound, ride is soso, china (to the right of ride) is too harsh by its own design.

Vote twice if appropriate! Votes are public so you can match up cymbal setup with mic setup.

Count cymbal close micing as O/H's

[RAMI]

I use 4 mics total:

One snare

One kik

Two overheads.

[PhilGood]

I've always heard that none was too few and three was too many.

BTW, the overheads are NOT just for the cymbals, contrary to what everyone thinks.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by PhilGood

BTW, the overheads are NOT just for the cymbals, contrary to what everyone thinks.

Exactly. Overheads should be where most of your overall drum sound comes from. That's why they're called "overheads", as opposed to "cymbal mics". There's no need for more than 2, and you can't get a stereo image with just one.

[The549]

Originally Posted by RAMI

Exactly. Overheads should be where most of your overall drum sound comes from. That's why they're called "overheads", as opposed to "cymbal mics". There's no need for more than 2, and you can't get a stereo image with just one.

I get my attack from the overheads, and supporting tone and stereo image from dynamic close micing.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by The549

I get my attack from the overheads, and supporting tone and stereo image from dynamic close micing.

If it works for you, then that's all that matters. I'd love to hear a sample.

[Dogbreath]

I'm in kinda the same boat as Rami...
4 mics
Kick
snare
2 OH's

and the occasional spot mic. Sometimes for toms...sometimes as a room mic. Usually just 4 does the trick just fine.

[The549]

Originally Posted by RAMI

If it works for you, then that's all that matters. I'd love to hear a sample.

It sounds terrible so far compared to the stuff I've heard here. My last recording was just a single overhead and kick, so I'm starting to think about my band's recording this summer. I don't like the idea of a snare mic without tom mics, since it seems counterintuitive in terms of preferred balance. I started this thread to get some ideas to improve my recordings.

With my latest recordings I'm wondering if I should either go the more directional route with two overheads and maybe a hat mic or the opposite and pull the single mic in front of the set for a more consistent volume, but lose that stick attack from the cymbals.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by The549

I started this thread to get some ideas to improve my recordings.

I know. That's why we're having this discussion. I've heard some great recordings with 2 overheads, a kik, and a snare mic. Balance is not an issue.

[gecko zzed]

Like others who have already responded, I sue four mikes: kick snare and two overheads.

There have been a couple of occasions when I've miked up toms, but that was at the insistence of a drummer who was producing a CD of his drumming.But even in that exercise, we decided he got all the sound he needed without using the tom mikes.

I viewed a discussion with a drummer who uses maybe 14 mikes or more. He does it because he can, and he gets rid of what we doesn't want afterwards. You've covered all possibilities that way, but it sounds more like a headache than anything practical.

[mixsit]

I've settled in on a method that's sort of a logical out growth of my home studio options, plus the nature of the projects that go here. I.e, no nice big rooms (but enough connected' combined area to sound decent), typically bass next to the drum's gobo'd off area in the same room, some guitar bleed from the next room. Band/artists, I, seldom know fully ahead of time the 'correct tone- mostly it's just cover it well and straight forward.
2) QTC-1's kit main down fairly low left and right of the drummer. Snare and kick centered ah la 'recorderman but below the gobo. Typically panned 70- 30%.

2) Octava MK012 from the front over the cymbals, generally slightly farther from the snare/kick than QTC's but again 'Haas centered if possible. Yes there's some phase tone change but- their typically HPF' one to two hundred or more, and quite a bit lower in volume. (Remember phase depth' is relative volume. These become 'top candy with independent 'spread from the main kit.

Close kick (RE20 or ATM25 more lately, close snare (57 or i5), something fun 15-18" out front of the kick (big' crude' mono tone)

And a late add on- Something scooped (or not) down and around the kick drum foot (FTom side) 'Pure shell' is the best way to describe it, w/ or w/o low end depending on if it's getting front and batter out of phase. (Need some nice pre-eq'd whack' from a 'double headed boomer?

Set positions and polarity at tracking for solid healthy tones, play with polarity at mix for lots of options.

[PhilGood]

Standard recording setup: Kick mic, two overheads. Add snare if needed. Add toms if needed and pan them. If tracks are limited, go with one mic for two toms. Don't over EQ, pick decent mics, tune the drums, don't do too much muffling (if any) and you can't go wrong!

[PhilGood]

Originally Posted by mixsit

I've settled in on a method that's sort of a logical out growth of my home studio options, plus the nature of the projects that go here. I.e, no nice big rooms (but enough connected' combined area to sound decent), typically bass next to the drum's gobo'd off area in the same room, some guitar bleed from the next room. Band/artists, I, seldom know fully ahead of time the 'correct tone- mostly it's just cover it well and straight forward.
2) QTC-1's kit main down fairly low left and right of the drummer. Snare and kick centered ah la 'recorderman but below the gobo. Typically panned 70- 30%.

2) Octava MK012 from the front over the cymbals, generally slightly farther from the snare/kick than QTC's but again 'Haas centered if possible. Yes there's some phase tone change but- their typically HPF' one to two hundred or more, and quite a bit lower in volume. (Remember phase depth' is relative volume. These become 'top candy with independent 'spread from the main kit.

Close kick (RE20 or ATM25 more lately, close snare (57 or i5), something fun 15-18" out front of the kick (big' crude' mono tone)

And a late add on- Something scooped (or not) down and around the kick drum foot (FTom side) 'Pure shell' is the best way to describe it, w/ or w/o low end depending on if it's getting front and batter out of phase. (Need some nice pre-eq'd whack' from a 'double headed boomer?

Set positions and polarity at tracking for solid healthy tones, play with polarity at mix for lots of options.

Uuuuuuhhhhh....What?!

Standard recording setup: Kick mic, two overheads. Add snare if needed. Add toms if needed and pan them. If tracks are limited, go with one mic for two toms. Don't over EQ, pick decent mics, tune the drums, don't do too much muffling (if any) and you can't go wrong!

As a matter of fact: if you use good mics, good placement, good room, ....you should never even need to touch an EQ knob!
________________

[TyphoidHippo]

Originally Posted by mixsit

I've settled in on a method that's sort of a logical out growth of my home studio options, plus the nature of the projects that go here. I.e, no nice big rooms (but enough connected' combined area to sound decent), typically bass next to the drum's gobo'd off area in the same room, some guitar bleed from the next room. Band/artists, I, seldom know fully ahead of time the 'correct tone- mostly it's just cover it well and straight forward.
2) QTC-1's kit main down fairly low left and right of the drummer. Snare and kick centered ah la 'recorderman but below the gobo. Typically panned 70- 30%.

2) Octava MK012 from the front over the cymbals, generally slightly farther from the snare/kick than QTC's but again 'Haas centered if possible. Yes there's some phase tone change but- their typically HPF' one to two hundred or more, and quite a bit lower in volume. (Remember phase depth' is relative volume. These become 'top candy with independent 'spread from the main kit.

Close kick (RE20 or ATM25 more lately, close snare (57 or i5), something fun 15-18" out front of the kick (big' crude' mono tone)

And a late add on- Something scooped (or not) down and around the kick drum foot (FTom side) 'Pure shell' is the best way to describe it, w/ or w/o low end depending on if it's getting front and batter out of phase. (Need some nice pre-eq'd whack' from a 'double headed boomer?

Set positions and polarity at tracking for solid healthy tones, play with polarity at mix for lots of options.

This is weird enough that I just might try a few of these things.

As for me: I mic everything and just build up during mixdown - start with kick, snare, overheads - as is standard.

Then, if necessary, bring in toms if the overheads didn't quite capture the right sound for the song. Also - if something quirky happened during tracking and the hats or ride aren't placed well in the stereo field - well.... to be quite honest, I cheat and bring in the hat and ride tracks (and gently massage the overall mix to place them where they should have been to begin with)....like I said - this just saves time - I don't get it perfect every time...and neither does the other guy who runs tracking sessions here. Rather than call whatever drummer to come back out here to re-track - I'll just pull in the extra tracks and pretend like nothing happened. Nobody has ever noticed a difference...

P.S. Drumagog can do amazing things to the crap drumsets that 80% of drummers have. (Now I'm gonna get struck by HR lightning...)

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by PhilGood

Uuuuuuhhhhh....What?!

What what?

[iownrocknroll]

Last recording I did was....

2 JM 27 over the kit. KCM 90 Ribbon Figure 8 over the kit in the middle.

Audio Technica Some over priced SDC on the hats, Rode NT1-a on the ride.

i like having a mic on the hats and ride. I like the stick noise and I like to pan them extremely wide.

I'm also been using a Mojave MA-200 about 24 inches off the ground and 3 feet infront of the kick and 2 Audix SDC as my room mics in a triangle with the bass drum around 24 inches off the ground.

Other mics include at times.

D112 barely inside kick, md421 tight to batter head inside kick.

audix f12 on toms, sm 57 on top snare, akg click on condenser also on top and bottom of snare.

[PhilGood]

Originally Posted by mixsit

What what?

I don't know. It sounded like you were trying to communicate er sumthin' but I'm pretty sure some a that wernt real words!

[RRuskin]

In a "bad" room, I won't use any. Nothing on any cymbal other than the hi hats. 1 mic in tight on anything with a head on it though. When doing this, I use the leak from the various mics to the best advantage.

Good room/good drummer - 2 overheads but sometimes 3.

[Waffleness]

Originally Posted by RRuskin

In a "bad" room, I won't use any. Nothing on any cymbal other than the hi hats. 1 mic in tight on anything with a head on it though. When doing this, I use the leak from the various mics to the best advantage.

Good room/good drummer - 2 overheads but sometimes 3.

Surely you dont loose anything by tracking overheads, even if you leave them mute on the final mix?

[Waffleness]

I have a suggestion - it might be a bad one but I will say it anyway:

Would tracking cymbols seperately from the rest of the kit sound better? I haven't got a drum kit to hand so can't try it out. For example if you just recorded kick snare hats toms with the drummer playing normally, then get him to do it again just playing the cymbols. The OH tracks would be clean of Toms, hats and snare, and would be easier to mix?

Do people do this?

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by Waffleness

Surely you dont loose anything by tracking overheads, even if you leave them mute on the final mix?

True but experience has proven it would be a waste of my time. Other than recording a click track or drum machine loop for reference, I don't record anything I know I'm not going to use.

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by Waffleness

I have a suggestion - it might be a bad one but I will say it anyway:

Would tracking cymbols seperately from the rest of the kit sound better? I haven't got a drum kit to hand so can't try it out. For example if you just recorded kick snare hats toms with the drummer playing normally, then get him to do it again just playing the cymbols. The OH tracks would be clean of Toms, hats and snare, and would be easier to mix?

Do people do this?

People do that. Typically, recording the basic groove 1st and overdubbing the fills (toms and cymbals) later. Whether it's easier to mix is debatable but it certainly allows for more control.

[travisisgood]

Originally Posted by Waffleness

Would tracking cymbols seperately from the rest of the kit sound better? I haven't got a drum kit to hand so can't try it out. For example if you just recorded kick snare hats toms with the drummer playing normally, then get him to do it again just playing the cymbols. The OH tracks would be clean of Toms, hats and snare, and would be easier to mix?

Do people do this?

seems kinda pointless at that point, may as well just play the cymbals too, especially since you are probably going to pick the sounds up of other pieces in other mics anyways.

[Seafroggys]

Yep, 4 mics for me...snare, bass, overheads. I have 3 crashes, ride, hats, and a splash. Great sound I get!

[TyphoidHippo]

Originally Posted by Waffleness

Would tracking cymbols seperately from the rest of the kit sound better? ... The OH tracks would be clean of Toms, hats and snare, and would be easier to mix?

Do people do this?

Originally Posted by RRuskin

People do that. Typically, recording the basic groove 1st and overdubbing the fills (toms and cymbals) later. Whether it's easier to mix is debatable but it certainly allows for more control.

Yea - LOTS of people do that. A lot more than will admit it for sure... A great drummer with a stellar kit - I'll record the real deal every time....sadly those are few and far between. For everyone else: There's Drumagog + clean cymbal overdubs. Killer drums in record time, with minimal hassle...

Just don't let any of the purist type folks find out...they'll tear you a new one for "cheating" and not "capturing the essence of the song - in the room - in the moment"...blah blah etc. etc.