soundproofing question

[stepXinXtheXmix]

I have two identical rooms, both 16x10 that I want to turn in to control / drum rooms. They are in the middle of a church building. The ceilings are raised and they are on the second floor. HELP, I'm expecting to do quite a bit of work but where to start? The church is adding on to their existing building and its possible they will add this into the budget. What is suggested for the floor and ceiling? The walls are dry-walled and I doubt they have insulation, pretty sure they are aluminum studs also.

[jhbrandt]

Is the floor concrete?

How high is the ceiling?

What are your main concerns? Isolating the floor and ceiling?

[stepXinXtheXmix]

Originally Posted by jhbrandt

Is the floor concrete?

How high is the ceiling?

What are your main concerns? Isolating the floor and ceiling?

The floor is just plywood and carpet on 2x6's or 2'12's, no concrete. To the initial ceiling tile it's 8' above that to the actual roof its another 12'+. The main concern is isolating the rooms from everything around....I know it's impossible to completely to this, but as long at the control room and drum room are isolated from each other that's the main thing....

[DrJosh]

The best advice I can give you is to read this book. Actually, read it twice before you even think about starting this project. It has pretty much everything you need to know and is presented in a very organized and readable way.

[stepXinXtheXmix]

Originally Posted by DrJosh

The best advice I can give you is to read this book. Actually, read it twice before you even think about starting this project. It has pretty much everything you need to know and is presented in a very organized and readable way.

Don't have that much time....need just some price to put a cost on this thing....

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Don't have that much time....need just some price to put a cost on this thing....

If you don't have time now, you won't have time or the ability to FIX what you left out or didn't understand how to do correctly. SOUNDPROOFING...especially on a second floor is a lesson in hindsight should you try to ESTIMATE a per foot cost WITHOUT understnding what it is you have to do in the first place. I seriously suggest you buy Rods book. He IS the expert. Otherwise I would submit a estimated cost of $120 sf. However, without any info to go on, like:
WHO is going to provide the labor
What is your Transmission Loss target?
What is the existing floor construction?..i.e. ..will it support additional weight? Mass=weight...which is what it takes for "soundproofing".
I suggest including the cost of Structural Engineering/consultation costs as well.
Do you have a predefined budget limit?
.... it could go lower or higher. However, guessing is actually ludicrous at this point.

[DrJosh]

Originally Posted by stepXinXtheXmix

Don't have that much time....need just some price to put a cost on this thing....

Oh, sorry. I should have responded to questions you didn't ask, rather than the ones you did:

Originally Posted by stepXinXtheXmix

HELP, I'm expecting to do quite a bit of work but where to start? ... What is suggested for the floor and ceiling?

[stepXinXtheXmix]

Originally Posted by RICK FITZPATRICK

If you don't have time now, you won't have time or the ability to FIX what you left out or didn't understand how to do correctly. SOUNDPROOFING...especially on a second floor is a lesson in hindsight should you try to ESTIMATE a per foot cost WITHOUT understnding what it is you have to do in the first place. I seriously suggest you buy Rods book. He IS the expert. Otherwise I would submit a estimated cost of $120 sf. However, without any info to go on, like:
WHO is going to provide the labor
What is your Transmission Loss target?
What is the existing floor construction?..i.e. ..will it support additional weight? Mass=weight...which is what it takes for "soundproofing".
I suggest including the cost of Structural Engineering/consultation costs as well.
Do you have a predefined budget limit?
.... it could go lower or higher. However, guessing is actually ludicrous at this point.

$38,000, you've lost you're mind. I could build a small studio for that. I just want to revamp the room, this doesn't have to be an elaborate project. I'm saying $3,000 most. I work for an engineering company, that's why they came to me. The labor's not an issue. What can be done? Obviously I'd have to put in a solid ceiling instead of the tiling. I'm thinking of covering the floor with another layer of 3/4" play and then bamboo flooring for the drum room floor. Putting the drum room ceiling on a slope not much but enough to open it up a little(I have 12' above to play with) Putting bamboo on the ceiling with some inset diffusers. Angling the corners to a 45* and stuffing them for bass traps. I mean am I on the right track here? I really don't have time cause the church is closing on their loan in a week and if they are going to do this they need to know a cost.

[oblackmer]

Hey dude, the thing is, if your dealing with an iso problem on the second floor you are looking at probably having to build a solid floating shell, meaning, not touching any other part of the structure this requires a certian amount of experience in the field. if this is a DIY project then prepare for some insanity. if you are interested in hiring some outside help I may be able to hook you up with the right people. and a quote.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

I have two identical rooms, both 16x10 that I want to turn in to control / drum rooms. They are in the middle of a church building.

The floor is just plywood and carpet on 2x6's or 2'12's, no concrete.

You don't even know what the SUPPORT structure is???? And you want to add 4 tons of drywall? ahhhh...I think you need to do some investigation.

HELP, I'm expecting to do quite a bit of work but where to start?

I told you where to start. geeeezus, some people just don't get it.

$38,000, you've lost you're mind.

No, I'm not. Considering the size of the rooms, on a second floor.

I could build a small studio for that.

Well, isn't that EXACTLY what you are planning on building? Afterall, you told us this...

I have two identical rooms, both 16x10 that I want to turn in to control / drum rooms.

Sounds like a studio to me

I'm saying $3,000 most.

Excuse me? I thought you wanted to do this:

The main concern is isolating the rooms from everything around....

Maybe on your planet. I'd submit you are the one who has lost his mind.

[oblackmer]

Yeah, really dude, if you cant throw at least 20g at this your not going to get much in the way of isolation and it is extremely important that you know what you are trying to build in and on. Recording studios are an involved process and you may just need more time than you have in order to plan if you want to do it even a little bit right. my suggestion is that you dont put any time or money into it until you are really ready to jump in. And dont be totally disheartened.

[noisedude]

Guys, please play nice. Clearly this guy is not trying to build a commercial facility and there is a lot of good stuff you can do for $3k. Jeez, a friend of mine built a floating room within his garage with air con and all treaments for £2k. And that sucker is virtually soundproof and sounds excellent on tape.

It sounds like there's a couple of spare rooms they want to put some gear in but have to make it less noisey for everyone else in the building. What can he do on the cheap? Deaden the ceiling? Pack the corners? Float a floor? Cover the windows?

The brains in the Studio Building forum are more than capable of coming up with some frugal ideas ............ and after all, to use the tired old argument, since when did anyone doing HOME RECORDING(.com) spend tens of thousands on their hobby setup?

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Guys, please play nice. Clearly this guy is not trying to build a commercial facility and there is a lot of good stuff you can do for $3k. Jeez, a friend of mine built a floating room within his garage with air con and all treaments for £2k.

Just to clarify something here. He is the one that said

The main concern is isolating the rooms from everything around....

This is on a SECOND FLOOR...taking his statement at face value suggests that Transmission loss is the goal...and with very little info given..I gave a HIGH estimate BECAUSE its on a second floor. Anytime you plan on HIGH transmission loss on a second floor...you are dealing with STRUCTURAL FAILURE! Hence the high dollar estimate. Yea, you can spend $3k and attain a somewhat soundproof studio. To what degree is the question. But then...GIVEN existing 2x6 floor joist construction possibility..another possibility exists of STRUCTURAL FAILURE! Hence my suggestions. I wasn't trying to give this guy a hard time. Only open his inexperienced eyes to the possible problems he faces..UNLESS he does some preliminary investigation and reading. Not only that, we haven't even touched on HVAC/ventilation info

Remember...he's talking a DRUM ROOM on a second floor MEMBRANE which trying to resolve cheaply is a lesson in hindsight. Usually, decoupling a room is the only option...which translates into WEIGHT. Hence my suggestion of a structural engineer consultation.

Anyway, I'm all ears and am here to help. But we need INFO! However, these types of projects(upper floors) are always subject to structural integrety problems and anyone who helps is at risk of placing someone and himself in jeprody. Thats the REAL reason for my suggestion FIRST and FOREMOST.

Not only that, but since this is a PUBLIC building, there are inherent BUILDINGCODES that can restrict certain types of construction. Just flying by the seat of your pants and going ahead and building withOUT a permit, can evolve into all sorts of liability issues. THAT is the real problem
fitZ

[chugheshc]

Rick comes across a little dramatically, but I think he's right.
OP said he wants to isolate, has a weak structure, on the second floor with (according to his details) adjoining spaces.
OP should take a step back, especially if he is an engineering type.
This will very likely be expensive and time consuming to do safely and efficiently.
At a minimum an architect will need to be involved (and likely a structural engineer to sign off on plans). That right there ought to tell OP that this is no place for quick, seat of the pants estimates.
Worst case - you have structural collapse, fire and damage to other adjoining structures.
Best case - you have potential for all of that and markedly inefficient transmission loss as well.
Yes, there are often low cost efficient solutions to some challenges in sound, but in this instance is does not look wise (or possibly even legal) to go that route.
How about OP send us some pictures?
cheers
C.

[Supercreep]

Originally Posted by noisedude

Guys, please play nice. Clearly this guy is not trying to build a commercial facility and there is a lot of good stuff you can do for $3k. Jeez, a friend of mine built a floating room within his garage with air con and all treaments for £2k. And that sucker is virtually soundproof and sounds excellent on tape.

With all respect, noisedude, you either didn't grok the initial post or you are short a big stack of clues. He wants to soundproof two rooms. On the second floor of a church... with three grand. I spent more than that on plans and permits. I spent twice that much on treatment. I spent six months planning the build, and I still screwed up a number of things.

There's plenty more fun things to waste $3,000 on. Rick is completely right, the OP is completely wrong. Rick is trying to save this guy money and aggravation - we all are.

Originally Posted by noisedude

to use the tired old argument, since when did anyone doing HOME RECORDING(.com) spend tens of thousands on their hobby setup?

I spent exponentially more than that, noisedude. Many of us here have done so. If he wants to make a cool couple of rooms to record in that sound good, no problem. That isn't what the fellow asked for.

[Supercreep]

Originally Posted by stepXinXtheXmix

$38,000, you've lost you're mind.

.....lol.

Originally Posted by stepXinXtheXmix

am I on the right track here?

No.

Just do a search for "soundproof". What you're wanting to do is going to be expensive and difficult.

[oblackmer]

how about this. stepXinXtheXmix, I will tell you how to get good isolation but the materials alone for doing it the traditional way in such a large space are (market value) going to be between 1500 and 2000 dollars... for the shell. and its a pain in the ass to build. alot of man hours of labor. and im not even talking internal acoustics yet. maybe we can work out a cheaper, unconventional method but i make no promises.

i suggest asking for as much as you feel comfortable with for the renovation and then get in touch with me and ill do my best to share how to get the most for your money. I really suggest going all out though and asking for a waay bigger budget than you think necessary. I can set you up with an actual blueprint if you have the budget for design and consultation. if not i can at least try to point you in the right direction.

and its not always easy to convince local building inspectors that the things we do in sound rooms is entirely safe or legal.

I dont think its impossible to get what you want out of this but i think the scale might be different than you originally thought. totally worth it though totally.

[noisedude]

Originally Posted by Supercreep

With all respect, noisedude, you either didn't grok the initial post or you are short a big stack of clues. He wants to soundproof two rooms. On the second floor of a church... with three grand. I spent more than that on plans and permits. I spent twice that much on treatment. I spent six months planning the build, and I still screwed up a number of things.

There's plenty more fun things to waste $3,000 on. Rick is completely right, the OP is completely wrong. Rick is trying to save this guy money and aggravation - we all are.

I'm not short any clues, thanks. This guy clearly can't be expecting to actually soundproof these rooms, he said 'this doesn't have to be an elaborate project', but he wants improve the isolation. In fact, he came up with some pretty good thoughts himself.

And for a masterclass on constructive criticism rather than condescension and rolleyes smilies, see oblackmer's posts in this thread.

Originally Posted by Supercreep

I spent exponentially more than that, noisedude. Many of us here have done so. If he wants to make a cool couple of rooms to record in that sound good, no problem. That isn't what the fellow asked for.

I'm glad for you that you're so wealthy. Most of us, though, will never have that sort of income to blow on evenings and weekends.

[noisedude]

Originally Posted by oblackmer

i suggest asking for as much as you feel comfortable with for the renovation and then get in touch with me and ill do my best to share how to get the most for your money.

Do it here, and then the DIY/home hobbyist community gets the benefit of you guys' experience of planning it and making it happen.

[Norris Shepherd]

I really like this document for soundproofing. Helped me a lot with my basement 'studio' soundproofing attempts.

http://www.acoustics101.com/common/acoustics101v3_0.pdf

Obviously, it pushes the Auralex products, but there is lots of knowledge that you can use in it regardless of brands in it.

My basement studio is quite small (8' X 12'), and i did most of the work in it.

- Sub floor assembled with prefabbed plywood squares with plastic on bottom
- Resilient metal channels on wall studs
- Roxul AFB insulation in about 50% of the walls (all i could find locally .. and to get more was going to take 8 weeks!)
- Resilient channels, Roxul in ceiling.
- 5/8th gyrock.
- Acoustical caulking.
- Paint and primer
- Floating 'click' floor
- Trim
- Solid Core doors (X3).. .bought for 50$ each

I spent just under 5000$ Canadian for this.

For the Roxul alone, to buy enough to do the whole room was going to be $1800 CAN.

And my point? none .. other than giving the OP an idea of what it cost me to do a very small room in the basement of a house, cutting as many corners as i could. His project would be much more complex.

[Supercreep]

Originally Posted by noisedude

I'm glad for you that you're so wealthy

I'm not particularly wealthy - and my personal finances have nothing to do with this thread. You asked who. I told you. There's no reason at all for you to be condescending.

I'm not giving bad advice, ND. OP can ignore it and do whatever he wants.

You can too.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

I have two identical rooms, both 16x10 that I want to turn in to control / drum rooms. They are in the middle of a church building.

There is the MAIN clue. IN THE MIDDLE! I've seen things like this. People get together and decide partition off some space on an upper floor with NO regard for support walls below or even if the joists will support the possible live/dead weight . They just do it. And if you do it without permits..in the event of ANYTHING happening...you run the risk of not only injury, but FINES and even loss of insurance. This is why I opened this can of worms.

Think about this. Simply adding ONE layer of 5/8" drywall to the walls in each room will add roughly 1830 lbs(about 26 sheets of 4x8 5/8" drywall at 70.4lbs per sheet). This doesn't even include the floor, or equipment..AND PEOPLE!
fitZ

[noisedude]

Originally Posted by Supercreep

I'm not particularly wealthy - and my personal finances have nothing to do with this thread. You asked who. I told you. There's no reason at all for you to be condescending.

And I wasn't. But seeing as you mention financial perspective, I earn a national average salary and my car cost me £5k and will take years to pay off. I don't own ten thousand pounds' worth of belongings in total. Don't make out that spending well over tens of thousands on one's hobby is normal, mate, if the only option for keeping the noise down was going to cost $38k I simply wouldn't make music any more.

With that said there IS some good advice in this thread, it's just disappointing that people needed to alert the mods to it (and not just one person either).

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

it's just disappointing that people needed to alert the mods to it (and not just one person either).

Alert the mods? For what? Hmmm, did someone get hims little feelings hurt or something? Other than that I don't get it.

if the only option for keeping the noise down was going to cost $38k I simply wouldn't make music any more.

I already explained the reasons for the $38k estimate. But for your sake I'll say it again...anytime you want somebody to estimate modding a couple of rooms on an upper floor...and you don't have a clue whats supporting the floor OR what the target Transmission Loss is....BUT..you tell the person estimating it..."The main concern is isolating the rooms from everything around"I submit you have to guess high. Even then your spittin in the wind. I only tried to point out what he was up against to MEET THE STATED GOAL! However, your right. MOST people here would have to forgo building a home studio IF they had to spend that much money. However, MOST people aren't trying to "ISOLATE" 2 ROOMS ON AN UPPER FLOOR FROM EVERYTHING AROUND THEM. But if you were...YEA, it COULD cost that much and even more under some circumstances. Thats reality. Live with it.

[mshilarious]

I'm with Rick here. No, it probably isn't $38K, but Rick didn't say it was. He said that was his highball estimate because the OP refused to provide any details on existing construction. I mean, c'mon, he works for an engineering company? Remind me not to hire them!

And of course it's a commercial space. You just don't screw around with commercial space, you have to get a permit and engineered drawings. What's under the room, the sanctuary?

My guess is $10K in materials plus permits (varies greatly by jurisdiction), with all volunteer labor. Presumably there is a GC and tradesmen in the church who can pull the required permits. Commercial ain't like a home studio where the homeowner can pull permits and even do most of the trade work himself.

Or if this is being rolled into a larger remodel, perhaps there is no marginal cost to permits and economies in purchasing materials, labor, etc. But then we'd just be guessing, and guessing with no real information.

OP got the advice he merited . . .