Snare Drum Reverb Help

[jeliot86]

I'm just diving into the realm of mixing and just can't seem to get the snare sound I'm looking for. I recorded top and bottom mic and have the dry sound of the snare pretty close. But I took a day and just listened to a lot of song that fall in the same genre as my band and have been trying to model a snare sound from this song

http://www.ggapband.com/all4u

2 days and still not even close. I love the overall reverb it has and how the snare sits in the mix. Seems to me there's a lot of reverb maybe zero pre delay but definitely has some tail. Maybe a side chaining Para EQ to bring out the reverb in the snares (real punchy) Just throwing out there what I have soaked up the last couple of days. I'm on a trial of waves True Verb also have CSR Reverb, Lexicon (came with sonar) and a TC Electronics M350 (Hardware).

Any help would be greatly appreciated. May save my soon to be Marriage,

I'm not getting anything accomplished.

[snellular5]

I cant really help you to much maybe boost the mids a bit?
But really diggin the song man!

[witzendoz]

I quite often use this on a snare working with this type of music.

Metal Plate
decay 0.8 sec to 1.2 sec depending on the tempo even up to 1.8 sec could work.

If it's not quite the sound, eq the lows out a bit and fiddle with highs (reverb eq) and see if it works.

Then check it works in the mix.

If using compression on the snare place this in line before the reverb.

This reverb works for toms too.

Cheers

Alan.

[Greg_L]

There's nothing especially fantastic about the snare in that clip. That's what you want to mimic right? I'll second the plate recommendation. Plate reverbs generally sound pretty good on snares.

One thing you might be overlooking is that the snare in that clip probably sounds very good to begin with, or it's a smaple. I don't know what you're working with, but everything's easier when you're working with a properly tuned and good sounding snare played by a competent drummer. If you've got some hack banging on a shitty sounding snare, you'll never fix it in the mix.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by Greg_L

There's nothing especially fantastic about the snare in that clip. That's what you want to mimic right? I'll second the plate recommendation. Plate reverbs generally sound pretty good on snares.

One thing you might be overlooking is that the snare in that clip probably sounds very good to begin with, or it's a smaple. I don't know what you're working with, but everything's easier when you're working with a properly tuned and good sounding snare played by a competent drummer. If you've got some hack banging on a shitty sounding snare, you'll never fix it in the mix.

Agree with everything there. While reverb can enhance the sound, it rarely makes or breaks it. If you're spending 2 days trying to mimic a sound, I can almost guarantee you that the reverb isn't your problem. Your source sound probably is. Reverb is probably the last and least important part of it. A good snare, tuned and miced properly, with a good player hitting it hard and consistently is 1000 times more important.

[BentRabbit]

yup and yup...


Can you give us an example of the track(s) you're fighting with?

[jeliot86]

Originally Posted by BentRabbit

yup and yup...


Can you give us an example of the track(s) you're fighting with?

Thanks for all your help guys. Even if I don't get this right this is all good info. As soon as I get home I will post a clip of the two snare sound clean not compression, and No Transient shaper. Just the top and bottom mics, maybe gated to get rid of the bleed.

thanks again, should be posted in a couple hours

[Greg_L]

No offense guy, but you shouldn't be needing all that transient shaping and multiple mics and compression and shit. Sure those are good tools to enhance an already good sound, but don't rely on that shit to "fix" anything. I think people tend to jump to that stuff without even really knowing if they need it or how to use it. It's like they think they're supposed to use it, and it ends up biting them in the ass. If you can't get a decent snare recording from one mic, then you're not ready for all that other stuff. Get the tuning, playing, and mic positioning basics handled first, and then expand into multiple mics and processing.

Yeah, pro commercial studios use lots of mics and processing. They know what they're doing and are usually dealing with great equipment and performers. It's cool to look to pro stuff for inspiration or ideas, but keep things realistic.

[jeliot86]

Originally Posted by Greg_L

No offense guy, but you shouldn't be needing all that transient shaping and multiple mics and compression and shit. Sure those are good tools to enhance an already good sound, but don't rely on that shit to "fix" anything. I think people tend to jump to that stuff without even really knowing if they need it or how to use it. It's like they think they're supposed to use it, and it ends up biting them in the ass. If you can't get a decent snare recording from one mic, then you're not ready for all that other stuff. Get the tuning, playing, and mic positioning basics handled first, and then expand into multiple mics and processing.

Yeah, pro commercial studios use lots of mics and processing. They know what they're doing and are usually dealing with great equipment and performers. It's cool to look to pro stuff for inspiration or ideas, but keep things realistic.

Oh I completely agree. The two mics was the only must I was looking to get good some good snap/snare sound from the bottom mic, and figured can't hurt I have the mics and the extra inputs. I got the snare sound pretty decent I think, but you can tell me once I post. The rest of that stuff was just tinkering to see what I could bring out in the sound.

[jeliot86]

Originally Posted by BentRabbit

yup and yup...


Can you give us an example of the track(s) you're fighting with?

Here is a sample of the snare I'm working with completely dry, except I added a gate, a little choppy in spots but I set the gate fairly quickly but...well you'll get the idea

http://www.ggapband.com/snare_test

Thanks guys

Jason AKA "Sponge Bob" (just soaking it all in)

If you guys think this snare isn't workable, let me know I'm not completely against triggering a sample and neither is my drummer. He knows his kit is vintage 70's and with the type of music I'm not sure it will be a big deal.

[Greg_L]

Lol. That gate is killing it. And a solo'd snare track tells nothing. Post up a mix with the drums and some music.

[RAMI]

Whoah!!! No offense, man...but you've got to be joking. Get rid of that horrible gating. It sounds like you're farting into a mic. There's no need to gate your snare anyway, in my opinion. A little leakage is fine, and certainly 1000 times more desireable than what that gate is doing to your snare.

[BentRabbit]

Originally Posted by jeliot86

Here is a sample of the snare I'm working with completely dry, except I added a gate, a little choppy in spots but I set the gate fairly quickly but...well you'll get the idea

http://www.ggapband.com/snare_test

Thanks guys

Jason AKA "Sponge Bob" (just soaking it all in)

If you guys think this snare isn't workable, let me know I'm not completely against triggering a sample and neither is my drummer. He knows his kit is vintage 70's and with the type of music I'm not sure it will be a big deal.

Houston I think we found the problem...



Wow... If you didn't tell me I really wouldn't have known that was a snare...

Strip away everything between the recorded track and the output and we can go from there... (Hopefully you didn't print the track with the gates on...?)

[jeliot86]

Ok boys ask and you shall receive, this is one of our originals ......drums completely clean, bear in mind this was a last minute add in to our recording session, the drums are the only tracks that have been dubbed over the scratch track. ie...............missed notes, shitty vocal, ect.....ect.....

I did not gate the drum while recording it just threw that in there to get the kick bleed from ringing out. Sorry apparently not a good idea) i didn't actually use that in the mix yet...of coarse

http://www.ggapband.com/Day_To_Day_test

[Greg_L]

It's hard to tell anything from that. So that's new drums recorded on top of scratch drums? So this is like having 2 drums in the mix?

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by Greg_L

It's hard to tell anything from that. So that's new drums recorded on top of scratch drums? So this is like having 2 drums in the mix?

No, I think he means the drums were recorded over the scratch guitar and vocal tracks, if I'm not mistaken.

It is hard to tell anything from this because the drums are pretty low in the mix. I can tell you one thing, though: Reverb isn't the source of your problem with your snare. Its a dull sounding drum sound, and that has everything to do with tuning, tracking and hitting them hard and consistently. Reverb is waaaaayyyyyyy down in the equation. You can spend another 3 weeks playing with reverb settings and the only thing you'll accomplish is ripping all your hair out.

[jeliot86]

Yes the drums are the final take but the rest are the scratch versions. I re mixed it to bring the drums up. Hopefully this helps to hear whats going on better.
Let me know...I can bring them up more if it helps.

http://www.ggapband.com/Day_To_Day_test

[jeliot86]

Originally Posted by RAMI

No, I think he means the drums were recorded over the scratch guitar and vocal tracks, if I'm not mistaken.

It is hard to tell anything from this because the drums are pretty low in the mix. I can tell you one thing, though: Reverb isn't the source of your problem with your snare. Its a dull sounding drum sound, and that has everything to do with tuning, tracking and hitting them hard and consistently. Reverb is waaaaayyyyyyy down in the equation. You can spend another 3 weeks playing with reverb settings and the only thing you'll accomplish is ripping all your hair out.

Unfortunately for me....the snare is what is at this point but we knew that going in. His drums are older than me. I'm hoping with a little tender loving care and the help from you guys I can bring out some of the missing qualities in his snare.....or just sample it. I would prefer to save the later as a last option unless like you said I'm going to keep pulling my hair out.

same link by the way.........

Edit: In case someone just listened to that in the last minute...... I did mix down the whole.....ahhh duhhhh, done in a second.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by jeliot86

Unfortunately for me....the snare is what is at this point but we knew that going in. His drums are older than me. I'm hoping with a little tender loving care and the help from you guys I can bring out some of the missing qualities in his snare.....or just sample it. I would prefer to save the later as a last option unless like you said I'm going to keep pulling my hair out.

Old drums are not a bad thing, neccassarilly. Old skins are a different story. And a drummer that doesn't know how to tune them. I'm not saying that's the case, but if it is, then the age of the drums is the least of your worries. But you're not going to get a thick full crack out of a snare drum with any of those issues, no matter how long you work on it.

I'm not understanding what you mean by "the drums is what it is and we knew that going in". If you knew that going in, then you should A) change the skins, get someone to tune them, or B) Accept that they're never going to sound like the drum you're trying to mimic, which is a professional recording with a well tuned drum being played by a solid drummer.

Again...and not to dwell on this....Forget about the reverb. That's not what's holding you back. You "knew going in" what's holding you back. You chose to accept it. All the reverb, gating, EQ'ing, tantric meditation, or anything else is not going to make it sound like that studio recording. Sampling might.

[jeliot86]

Originally Posted by RAMI

Old drums are not a bad thing, neccassarilly. Old skins are a different story. And a drummer that doesn't know how to tune them. I'm not saying that's the case, but if it is, then the age of the drums is the least of your worries. But you're not going to get a thick full crack out of a snare drum with any of those issues, no matter how long you work on it.

I'm not understanding what you mean by "the drums is what it is and we knew that going in". If you knew that going in, then you should A) change the skins, get someone to tune them, or B) Accept that they're never going to sound like the drum you're trying to mimic, which is a professional recording with a well tuned drum being played by a solid drummer.

Again...and not to dwell on this....Forget about the reverb. That's not what's holding you back. You "knew going in" what's holding you back. You chose to accept it. All the reverb, gating, EQ'ing, tantric meditation, or anything else is not going to make it sound like that studio recording. Sampling might.

Yah I was a little vague there......We sat down with a couple guys that have done quite a few recording over the years to figure out with what we had for drums mic's room ect....... could we get the snare sound to where we wanted it...over all they thought we could get there with minimal effort (or should I say minimal plugins and added crap.
Now I'm a newbie and not a drummer and our drummer is a great drummer that hasn't done a lot of recording over the years so the opinions here are all I have at this point. Re tracking the drums after everything else has been recorded is not out of the question. Do you think a good tuning will make that extra leap?

thanks again

[PhilGood]

Step back a second. Let's get some better info here.

What is the kit you're using? What are doing in the way of tuning, dampening (which is usually overdone by most folks) and placement?

What kind of mics are you using, where and how many?

Gotta start at square one.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by jeliot86

Do you think a good tuning will make that extra leap?

Man!!! Good tuning isn't the extra leap. It's the FIRST and MOST IMPORTANT step.

If these guys you sat with that supposedly have done a lot of recordings over the years over-looked or dismissed good tuning, then they shouldn't be giving you any advice. I'm not trying to be harsh, and I commend you for taking the advice you're getting here without getting defensive. But, tuning the drum really is the most important thing. Forget about plug-ins, reverb, or any other band-aid.

It starts at the source. A good drummer. A well tuned drum. Then good mics. Then mic placement. After that, the rest is just icing. But icing on a shitty cake doesn't save the cake.

[jeliot86]

Originally Posted by PhilGood

Step back a second. Let's get some better info here.

What is the kit you're using? What are doing in the way of tuning, dampening (which is usually overdone by most folks) and placement?

What kind of mics are you using, where and how many?

Gotta start at square one.

Ok

A '77 full set of Evans. Kick, Hi Mid Tom, Lo Mid Tom, Floor Tom

Snare
MXL 991 - top mic
CAD E200 - Bottom mic

Kick
RE20 - Front mic
CAD KBM 412 - Back mic

Toms (hi lo mixed to single track)
Nady DM70's

Floor Tom
Nady DM80

Overheads
MXL 990
Rode NT1-A

Damping some masking tape on snare and toms
and floor tom has a wallet on it. Oh and we taped a small peice of foam (under lay for rugs onto each mid tom)

Allen and heath 16:2 as the pre amp on everything except the overheads. Used a Pre Sonus MP20 with jenson transformers.

Let me know if I missed anything

[RAMI]

2 more question:

Are you flipping the phase on the bottom snare mic???

How are the overheads configured???

EDIT: I just noticed something. Are you using 2 different types of mics as overheads????

[jeliot86]

Originally Posted by RAMI

2 more question:

Are you flipping the phase on the bottom snare mic???

How are the overheads configured???

EDIT: I just noticed something. Are you using 2 different types of mics as overheads????

I did flip the phase on bottom snare mic and front kick mic and the overheads where recorded one out of phase.
Oh and on one Mid tom mic
I knew the overhead question was coming

I searched for days and the only two exact mics i could come up with were our live vocal mics SM Beta 58a's

EDIT: Does it make it any better that I thought to put the Rode on the Snare Hit Hat side be cause of its Noticeable....High frequency response...........................ahh screw it....it sucks.... I know
If I wasn't FREAKING getting married in 6 months I would have been at guitar center last month buying two sm57's or something.....DAM IT =)