A brick wall. PLEASE HELP

[Mull]

Alright, here is the situation. I wrote an awesome song and got all of the music recorded. Vocal time. I've been trying to get some vocal tracks down and I've made almost no progress in 2 straight days with probably a total time of 16 or so hours trying.

I've just recently started recording seriously. My last 2 songs were somewhat mellow, but this one is very heavy. Think the gain of Pantera with the heavy layering of Siamese Dream era Smashing Pumpkins. I'm starting to think it may be an equipment issue. I have a very simple, bare bones set up and that's why I think it may be the brick wall I'm beating my head against. Like I said, it's been ok until now. Maybe my ears are maturing or maybe I'm too close to the song.

I'll post my set up and maybe some more experienced engineers can point me in the right, decently cheap direction. The mic is an Audio Technica 2020. It's running into an ART tube MP project series pre amp then the xlr is converted to an xl into an eq. Ive been bypassing it. The eq then runs to a mixer which runs line in to a 24/96 sound card.

Help me before I go crazy.

[didgijimmy]

but from what I'm reading I am confused as to what the problem is. You say it's the vocals but you don't specify what is wrong with them. You make it sound like you can't think of what to sing, but then you describe the mic so I don't quite understand the issue...

[Sailjunkie]

I've been in the same situation countless times before, in fact, I have been working on the same song now for about a week. What works...if I feel that the vibe is just not there..I simply walk away and save the song for another day (or maybe work on another project). I've come back in a day or two or three with a fresher outlook and (9 times out of 10) I nail it on the first take. I laid down MY final track last night and I will be checking the master tonight (in hopes of mastering the thing to CD)...I'll let you know what happens.

[Mull]

I guess the main problem is that I can't get the vocals to fill the space. The guitars are really big and I love them. the vocals seem small. I've tried EQ'ing. I've tried different singing styles. Panning makes it too loose.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by Sailjunkie

I've been in the same situation countless times before, in fact, I have been working on the same song now for about a week. What works...if I feel that the vibe is just not there..I simply walk away and save the song for another day (or maybe work on another project). I've come back in a day or two or three with a fresher outlook and (9 times out of 10) I nail it on the first take. I laid down MY final track last night and I will be checking the master tonight (in hopes of mastering the thing to CD)...I'll let you know what happens.

I thought about working on some different music, but I'd hate to do that. This song is awesome and I'm so close to finishing it, but I just may have to let it sit so my ears can have a break from it.

[Sailjunkie]

give the vocals plenty of headroom. Lots of tracks to get that extra OOMPH. Just a suggestion though. Good luck!

[Sailjunkie]

It's ironic but I'm working on (what I think will be) one of the best things I've ever done. I'm giving it time though, and not rushing the mix and things are filling in nicely.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by Sailjunkie

give the vocals plenty of headroom. Lots of tracks to get that extra OOMPH. Just a suggestion though. Good luck!

Duplicate tracks or unique takes? Ive tried both. Ive also tried dupliactes with different EQing.

[Sailjunkie]

what I've done in the past (as I don't use computer DAW, but DO use an outboard digital multitrack unit) is run my Alesis 3630 compressor into the multitracks effects loop (send/return etc) and compress the signal(s) on mixdown, but you've got to pay close attention to ratios (2:1, 3:1, 4:1 etc. )and, to be honest, I do instrumental stuff so I've no experience compressing vocals. I'm sure someone else out there does though.

[Sailjunkie]

is to lower the volume on the other tracks, and THEN play with the EQ on the vocals. Lowering the volume is the easiest way to gain headroom in the stereo spectrum. Again, just trying to help...my advice could be all wet, but I'm learning too...

[Mull]

Originally Posted by Sailjunkie

is to lower the volume on the other tracks, and THEN play with the EQ on the vocals. Lowering the volume is the easiest way to gain headroom in the stereo spectrum. Again, just trying to help...my advice could be all wet, but I'm learning too...

That's a good idea. Do you know any ways to duplicate a track and change dynamics just enough to make them sound like they arent duplicates? I dont want 2 seperate takes because I want the vocals very tight. Know what I mean? I want the full surround sound of 3 tracks. 2 hard panned and one down the center, but the tightness of one single audio track.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by Sailjunkie

is to lower the volume on the other tracks, and THEN play with the EQ on the vocals. Lowering the volume is the easiest way to gain headroom in the stereo spectrum. Again, just trying to help...my advice could be all wet, but I'm learning too...

Actually , I think you may have figured it out. The music is pushed way up because I mix as I go. I though about it and the reason I probably didnt get the punch in the vocals I want is because I didnt give them enough head room. When I'd come close to getting the punch I wanted, I'd start peaking and have to try and compensate. Ill try pushing all the music down, then squishing the vocals and bringing the rest of the music back up. Thanks much man.

[Sailjunkie]

Give us a listen when you've mixed it all down!

[RAMI]

Duplicating a track does absolutely nothing but make it louder. It's the exact same thing as turning up one track. The only way to "duplicate" a track is to sing it twice.

[Monkey Allen]

Maybe you're just not suited to singing in this style

[Mull]

I pulled down all the levels and did some vocal tracks. Dual tracks. They're raw right now and I havent tinkered with them yet, but they sound good. Im going to wait till I finish before adding effects and eq. My voice is pretty much ripped for the night as I've been at it all day and it's metal. I'll have to pick it up tomorrow. The vocal style is Rammstein, Fear Factory-ish. Thanks for the suggection, Sailor. There is new hope!

[DrewPeterson7]

Originally Posted by Mull

I guess the main problem is that I can't get the vocals to fill the space. The guitars are really big and I love them. the vocals seem small.

I suspect you've realized this by now, but there's your problem. Everything in mixing is a tradeoff, you're basically allocating a finite sonic space between different instruments. If something's huge, then something else has to give. In this case it's your guitar and vocals...

[Mull]

Originally Posted by DrewPeterson7

I suspect you've realized this by now, but there's your problem. Everything in mixing is a tradeoff, you're basically allocating a finite sonic space between different instruments. If something's huge, then something else has to give. In this case it's your guitar and vocals...

Yeah, I'm finding heavier music is more complex to engineer because you want that big , powerful sound. I pulled the music down, recorded the vocals and pushed the music back up to do tweaking on the vocals. The vocals are a lot better now, but Im still finding a little trouble making the vocals sit in the big sound of the music. To make the vocals stand out, it seems I have to push them above the music which I don't want to do because I want them to sit in the big wall of sound, but still stand out and be clear. I'll probably try puching the music down slightly. Made a lot of progress though.

[Sailjunkie]

even after 20 odd years of home recording, I'm learning too and this website is a great way to communicate with others in the same boat (so to speak)

[DrewPeterson7]

Originally Posted by Mull

Yeah, I'm finding heavier music is more complex to engineer because you want that big , powerful sound. I pulled the music down, recorded the vocals and pushed the music back up to do tweaking on the vocals. The vocals are a lot better now, but Im still finding a little trouble making the vocals sit in the big sound of the music. To make the vocals stand out, it seems I have to push them above the music which I don't want to do because I want them to sit in the big wall of sound, but still stand out and be clear. I'll probably try puching the music down slightly. Made a lot of progress though.

More complex to mix, maybe - I think really intimate, sparse stuff is probably more complicated to "engineer" (and I hate using that term simply because let's be honest, you and I are just two guys fucking around in their bedrooms having a great time recording music and pretending what we do is anything more than that is kind of pretentious) simply because in such a sparse context, it's absolutely crucial to get your source material perfect.

Anyway, I think you missed my point, man. A huge, wall-of-sound guitar track on its' own sounds pretty fuckin' righteous- it's this massive behemouth of rumbling sound waves that can instill fear of god into even the coldest, deadest of hearts. Yet, the problem is that same huge guitar sound takes up an awful lot of bandwidth, and what might sound absolutely epic on it's own suddenly starts clashing like crazy when you start adding bass, drums, cymbols and, in your case, vocals.

The thing with the Smashing Pumpkins guitar tone, since you've mentioned it a few times, is it's not actually THAT big. Rather, it's very focused, with a ton of upper mids, fairly scooped low mids, and fairly tight bass. It just happens to cut like a knife betwen the bass guitar (which fills out the low end) and Corgan's voice (which is pretty high).

The "secret" if you want to call it that for mixing a really big guitar tone is, perversely, NOT to make it so big, but rather to make it fill just the space that it needs to.

[Erockrazor]

You should post a demo of the best you can do. Then we can more directly comment on the actual sounds youre dealing with. A popular technique is to put a cut in the eq around the vocal focus in the opposing tracks.

So, put an eq on those huge guitars and cut out maybe 3-6 in the 2k, 3k range. Then maybe even boost your vocal track in that range by a few db. See if this makes any noticeable difference.

With EQ'ing there is an important aspect to look at called masking. Masking occurs when two different sources are occupying the same frequency. The louder one will really drain out the lower one (aka masking). This is a reason why I suggested to sculpt the mix around that range. You will make room for that vocal and the guitar and vocal wont be competing for the same space in the spectrum.

And don't trick yourself into thinking that your guitars don't sound big when on solo. Do this and listen to the mix, not the solo instruments. A lot of eq'ing is figuring out how the instruments are interacting with one another.

Also don't be afraid to use a low cut filter on the vocals. For me this often helps clear things up along with many other instruments. I'm done rambling.

Good luck, Eric

[Erockrazor]

Originally Posted by DrewPeterson7

The "secret" if you want to call it that for mixing a really big guitar tone is, perversely, NOT to make it so big, but rather to make it fill just the space that it needs to.

You beat me to it! Good post. Eric

[Mull]

Originally Posted by DrewPeterson7

More complex to mix, maybe - I think really intimate, sparse stuff is probably more complicated to "engineer" (and I hate using that term simply because let's be honest, you and I are just two guys fucking around in their bedrooms having a great time recording music and pretending what we do is anything more than that is kind of pretentious) simply because in such a sparse context, it's absolutely crucial to get your source material perfect.

Anyway, I think you missed my point, man. A huge, wall-of-sound guitar track on its' own sounds pretty fuckin' righteous- it's this massive behemouth of rumbling sound waves that can instill fear of god into even the coldest, deadest of hearts. Yet, the problem is that same huge guitar sound takes up an awful lot of bandwidth, and what might sound absolutely epic on it's own suddenly starts clashing like crazy when you start adding bass, drums, cymbols and, in your case, vocals.

The thing with the Smashing Pumpkins guitar tone, since you've mentioned it a few times, is it's not actually THAT big. Rather, it's very focused, with a ton of upper mids, fairly scooped low mids, and fairly tight bass. It just happens to cut like a knife betwen the bass guitar (which fills out the low end) and Corgan's voice (which is pretty high).

The "secret" if you want to call it that for mixing a really big guitar tone is, perversely, NOT to make it so big, but rather to make it fill just the space that it needs to.

I don't really agree. Although, I know I'm no pro, I don't really record for the fun of it. It's actually pretty frustrating and time consuming. I love music deeply and I feel the need to make it. I don't write for anyone but me, but if anyone happens to like it, then awesome.
About Smashing Pumpkins, I meant specifically Siamese Dream. Their other records were pretty straight forward and simple with the guitar, but Siamese Dream had massive layering and the tone was extremely thick.
The song is finished. I'm pretty satisfied with it. I didn't cut back on the guitars. I just kept on trying and trying.

www.myspace.com/mullecular The song is "Mechanize"

[didgijimmy]

Originally Posted by Mull

I don't really agree. Although, I know I'm no pro, I don't really record for the fun of it. It's actually pretty frustrating and time consuming. I love music deeply and I feel the need to make it. I don't write for anyone but me, but if anyone happens to like it, then awesome.
About Smashing Pumpkins, I meant specifically Siamese Dream. Their other records were pretty straight forward and simple with the guitar, but Siamese Dream had massive layering and the tone was extremely thick.
The song is finished. I'm pretty satisfied with it. I didn't cut back on the guitars. I just kept on trying and trying.

www.myspace.com/mullecular The song is "Mechanize"

I wouldn't simplify the pumpkins too much. Alot of their songs had a tone of layering. Check out "rhinocerous" for example. It's pre-siamese dream and features something like 15 tracks of feedback alone! The thing that changed was that their music became less guitar oriented as they progressed, still plenty of layering, just not as much on the guitar... until Zeitgeist that is. I'm probably the only nerd that cares enough about this post anyway. peace
james

[DrewPeterson7]

Originally Posted by Mull

I don't really agree. Although, I know I'm no pro, I don't really record for the fun of it. It's actually pretty frustrating and time consuming. I love music deeply and I feel the need to make it. I don't write for anyone but me, but if anyone happens to like it, then awesome.
About Smashing Pumpkins, I meant specifically Siamese Dream. Their other records were pretty straight forward and simple with the guitar, but Siamese Dream had massive layering and the tone was extremely thick.
The song is finished. I'm pretty satisfied with it. I didn't cut back on the guitars. I just kept on trying and trying.

www.myspace.com/mullecular The song is "Mechanize"

That's actually the exact Smashing Pumpins album I had in mind, man. Like I said, it's an incredibly focused sound - it sounds so huge precisely because it's not stepping on anything else.

Compare what you're doing to anything off that album. For one, I'll say that your track definitely doesn't sound bad - I second the Type O thing. Also, I'd say tonally and rhythmically this reminds me more of "Zero" than anything on Siamese Dream...

Anyway, I'm hopping back and forth between "Cherub Rock" and "Mechanize." For one, you're using significantly more gain than Corgan and Iha, and I've always considered the tones on this album to be pretty damned saturated, especially for their time. I'm sure it helps the guitars to sound "huge" on their own, but I suspect part of your problem is just that you're losing some articulation through all the "fizz" that comes with high saturation. You've done a pretty good job taming it, but you can still hear it in there...

Also, look where the vocals are falling relative to the guitars... Corgan has a pretty high voice - he's really singing over the guitar tone, whereas your voice is a lot lower. You're singing right in the middle of it, maybe a little below. He's pretty nasal and breathy, whereas you're more gutteral. The smashing Pumpkins guitar tone just works with his voice in ways it probably wouldn't work for yours.

You've also got a lot more low end here than they do - rolling the gain back a little should help that boominess, but maybe if you're low-passing this, move it up a few hz. It'll help your guitar sit against the bass better - this kind of stuff, your "guitar" tone is really the combination of the ba...

Ah-HA!!! What happens at 3:21? It sounds like maybe you've got your first two guitar tracks going on there, and then you put a third, gainier track up the center? I was listening to the guitar there before it kicks back in, and thinking, "you know, maybe it's early and my ears were just fucking with me, because that really doesn't sound so bad at all... Then the third guitar kicked in, and it got over-gained and boomy again. My money says if you pull that third track, then this mix would clean right up. It'd probably help with your vocals, too, there'd be less low and low-mid energy to fight against.


Also, since Type O's been mentioned a couple times now, A/B this against some of their stuff, because they're dealing with a lot of the same production challenges you are - deep voice, synths, electronic spaciness... I'm hopping between "Love You to Death" and "In Praise of Bacchus", and your guitar is WAY bassier and more rumbly than theirs is, and while I wouldn't hold them up as this landmark of guitar tone, exactly, you have to admit that the overall mix works pretty damned good... They're rocking more of a dark crunch, while your tone is full on saturated chunk, which just steps all over your vocals. It's worth thinking about...

Anyway, thing on "engineer" is, it's just a bit pretentious coming from a guy like you or I working out of their bedroom or basement and learning the ropes, especially if you have three songs under your belt, you know? Engineers are the guys working in studios who know this shit cold. You or I don't- that's why we ask questions on boards like this, in the hopes that the few guys who DO whill point us in the right direction.