Heads up for March

[up-fiddler]

OK. So while I was stuck I was thinking that I just needed a bit of a push from someone, somewhere and I would get back to writing sweet heartfelt prose that would make young girls weep and old men piss themselves. That's when an idea for a Challenge hit me betwixt the blinkers.

What if, on a given day, everyone who participates writes a number between one and two hundred and emails it to a third party who knows none of us. Then the third party would pair the numbers in any fashion they wished and post them to a thread here at HR. Each pair of numbers would become a team and have to COLLABORATE on a tune's lyrics via email or whatever. At the end of the month the tunes could be posted for review as usual. I f we agree at the outset the following month anyone, anywhere could put any of the March Challenge songs to music for a new April Challenge and review process.

I think that this would provide the participants a wonderful opportunity to work out the vagaries of artistic compromise and be a valuable learning experience. Copyright and ownership would belong to the collaborators on an equal share basis if anything was ever done with the tune or not. Perhaps one team of collaborators could go through and post the copyright process here at HR so that the newbies could learn that useful bit of knowledge also. (One for U.S., one for Canada, and one for Australia, and parts hitherto unknown?)

Anyway, this is just fanciful thinking about something else when what I am actually doing is standing on the Cliff of Procrastination instead of working in the studio. Chime in with your thoughts. The winter is long here and I will still be able to eke out time in March and April but I can't speak for everyone else.

[Frankie Rage]

As you are a trusted guru around these parts, maybe you could just put the names in hat (probably a brown fedora..) and pair us up that way?

I can't imagine anyone calling 'foul'..

I'll throw my hat in the ring anyways..

Fx

[gecko zzed]

Originally Posted by Frankie Rage

I'll throw my hat in the ring anyways..

Is it a brown fedora?

I'm game for this challenge.

Let's hope we get an even number of participants!

And instead of numbers . . . we could provide another alias.

[up-fiddler]

Originally Posted by gecko zzed

Is it a brown fedora?

I'm game for this challenge.

Let's hope we get an even number of participants!

And instead of numbers . . . we could provide another alias.

Actually even numbers aren't a big issue since participants could enter more than once and be on two or even three collabs. Another alias is a great idea and leads us away from an Orwellian 1984 type process.

[up-fiddler]

Originally Posted by Frankie Rage

As you are a trusted guru around these parts, maybe you could just put the names in hat (probably a brown fedora..) and pair us up that way?

I can't imagine anyone calling 'foul'..

I'll throw my hat in the ring anyways..

Fx

Trusted? Perhaps. Guru? I think not. Still, glad to have you in the ring. Any others who may be interested? Does this idea actually have legs?

[gecko zzed]

Originally Posted by up-fiddler

Actually even numbers aren't a big issue since participants could enter more than once and be on two or even three collabs.

As an extension to this idea . . . we could dispense with the lucky dip approach and simply make it that every participant has to collaborate with every other participant.

hmmm . . . having just said that, I realise that even just five participants would generate 20 sets of lyrics. And six would generate 30. Perhaps that's a bit much to ask.

But another idea springs to mind. I've noticed that there are some distinctiive styles from regular contributors. It would be interesting to have a set of lyrics and for each participant to take those lyrics and render the song in their own style.

[Chili]

I certainly wouldn't mind being the third party volunteer if you guys are so inclined. (How's that for passive-aggressive ) I loosely follow the challenges and plan to participate in the future.

If you decide to use my service, be sure to type the instructions real slow so I can understand them.

cheers.

[up-fiddler]

.....appreciate the offer Chili. Gecko - excellent ideas all around. I think that input for the makeup of the Challenge should be just as collaborative as the Challenge itself. Thanks, Dave. aka up-fiddler

[Hakea]

Hi Dave,

Here's my two bob's worth...

OK I'm greedy... here's my 73 bob's worth...

I’ve spent a fair while in short bursts over the last couple of years on another songwriting forum. They issue a weekly challenge rather than monthly, but it’s now in its 7th year. So here’s a few thoughts about what I thought works well there and what doesn’t.

Collaboration.

Feedback, right from day one, is not only accepted there it’s keenly sought. There’s always the odd person (usually newbies with poor skills) who turn up and simply want praise and can’t take suggestions, but they usually either get the message or else don’t last long. I've seen many messy efforts turned into fine songs when the authors received good feedback that they were prepared to listen to. Everybody makes suggestions to everybody else (and applauds too of course).

There's no compulsion to accept the suggestions, but if one listener can't understand what you're on about, or thinks it doesn't work, then you can guarantee there will be others like them. Depending on the audience you're aiming at, you may or may not need to consider their points. Nobody expects any particular credit for their suggestions, but they know that if they help others then they’re likely to get help back.

I didn’t see any specific pairings to work on songs, but what did crop up fairly often was somebody posting an open request for a volunteer to add a drum track, bass line, vocals or whatever. They didn’t always go all the way to fruition, but often did get completed. This wasn’t usually done as part of the ‘challenge’ side of things though.

Topics

Obviously, they’ve covered a huge range in that time most of which were suggestions about writing a song on a specific theme. Others had a more musical angle - use these chords, use the music in a particular way etc. Others that I can recall included a week where you had to write a song that copied what you saw as the style of another forum member. Another was to identify your own style and write the opposite (I did a punk song), and so on.

General

Over the years they’ve produced some great songs, some of which have been performed at various gigs. Several wobbly novices blossomed into producing strong efforts.

If there was a weakness, in my view (apart from a week being rather short to get a polished work done) it was the emphasis on lyrics. Many posters lacked the confidence, the skills, or the equipment (or all of those) to post mp3s of their songs. So there were a lot of orphan lyrics. In my experience, the idea that somebody will pick these up and add music later never happened. There are warehouses full of the things around the internet.

A major reason for this is that many of the would be ‘lyricists’ were actually behaving like amateur poets and had no real experience of matching music to words - which is very different skill from writing poetry.

For sure, there are some lyricists who write words that their partner sets to music later, but I think that such partnerships only work when they have build a strong understanding of how they each work. I believe that a good lyricist needs to be able to think like a singer and a musician above all. It doesn’t matter so much what the words look like on the page, it’s how they can match the rhythm, drive and mood of the music, and be sold by the singer that matters. If you’ve no musical ideas in your head when you write the words then that will tend to limit what can be done with them later.

So I think that the best type of challenge would be one that encourages all aspects of songwriting, not just lyric writing. I’d like to see something where songs will built from the ground up in public, with suggestions every step of the way.

E.g.

Here’s my general theme and a basic rhythm track that I’m going to write to (can anybody help with ideas for a better drums track please?)
Here’s my melody line and a short sample of lyrics (any suggestions for improvement on directions?)
Here’s the finished melody and lyrics and some rough harmony ideas (any help with chord progressions, arrangements, etc please?...)

Not necessarily in that order of course, but that’s the general idea. But the goal would be that everybody would end up with a completed song at the end of the month, and everybody would have learned something about the process by a) Thinking through other’s problems and helping solve them and b) Learning from the suggestions of others.

Not much to ask....

Maybe this is the wrong place for that approach, but it's something that I'd enjoy. Perhaps I should just find a patch somewhere and try it out?

Cheers,

Chris

[gecko zzed]

The songwriting forum is pretty much a free-for-all. The 'songwriting' title is very general, and that is reflected in the history of its posts, with things such as:
* people submitting lyrics for critique
* people asking for help with lyrics
* people seeking advice on song structures or other aspects of assembling material
* people submitting MP3s of their creations for comment
* people seeking collaborators
and so on.

In this sense it is little different from other forums in HR, and responses here follow the general pattern.

An added fillip here is the monthly challenge that up-fiddler started, and generally looks after. It's not an 'official' part of this forum, but it is something that adds a bit of life and excitement to it.

In the past, the usual method was for up-fiddler to set a challenge with a deadline, at which point participants would post their results, which would then attract comments. For the last couple of challenges though, there has been a slightly different process, most likely my fault, because I decided to work on my response to a challenge on-line, rather than go away and come back at some time in the future with a completed response.

See (and which contains the rationale for withholding comments on this specific challenge with visible participation):http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=274969

The important point, though, is that there is nothing from preventing anyone submitting a challenge of some sort if they would like to see a particular project, or method of working, or whatever tackled. I like responding to challenges. They are . . . well . . . a challenge. But I dislike mounting challenges. I kind of like the unexpectedness of them, which you don't get if you raise them yourself.

You have mentioned a couple of things you'd like to see, specifically:
"Here’s my general theme and a basic rhythm track that I’m going to write to (can anybody help with ideas for a better drums track please?)
Here’s my melody line and a short sample of lyrics (any suggestions for improvement on directions?)
Here’s the finished melody and lyrics and some rough harmony ideas (any help with chord progressions, arrangements, etc please?...)"

It's my impression that these questions occur often in this forum, though not necessarily posed as 'challenges'.

More generally, I wanted to offer some further thoughts on this:

Originally Posted by Hakea

If there was a weakness, in my view (apart from a week being rather short to get a polished work done) it was the emphasis on lyrics. Many posters lacked the confidence, the skills, or the equipment (or all of those) to post mp3s of their songs. So there were a lot of orphan lyrics. In my experience, the idea that somebody will pick these up and add music later never happened. There are warehouses full of the things around the internet.

A major reason for this is that many of the would be ‘lyricists’ were actually behaving like amateur poets and had no real experience of matching music to words - which is very different skill from writing poetry.

I accept that this was the case at the other forum you visited.

In the time that I've been visiting this forum, I've not personally noticed many 'lyrics only' writers. My impression is that most of the people posting lyrics are capable of performing them (and probably do), and I don't recall seeing many (if any) 'orphan lyrics' here. So there is possibly a different readership here than there is where you were.

I agree that some people write lyrics as if they were poems, and I further agree that poems don't necessarily make good songs. But in the end I don't mind if they do that. They need to find out somewhere, and it might as well be here. But, as I mentioned, I haven't seen a lot of that here.

This bit intrigued me:

Originally Posted by Hakea

For sure, there are some lyricists who write words that their partner sets to music later, but I think that such partnerships only work when they have build a strong understanding of how they each work. I believe that a good lyricist needs to be able to think like a singer and a musician above all. It doesn’t matter so much what the words look like on the page, it’s how they can match the rhythm, drive and mood of the music, and be sold by the singer that matters. If you’ve no musical ideas in your head when you write the words then that will tend to limit what can be done with them later.

I think it is generally true, but not universally true. I collaborated with a musical acquaintance for many years. Mostly he provided lyrics, and I wrote the music. The usual process was that he would say, "hey Mike, I came up with a new set of lyrics. You want to have a look and see what you can do with them?" I would go "okey dokey, let's have a look."

Here's the thing. He was a musician himself, and could easily have written the music himself. But he liked to see what I would come up with, no matter what his own ideas were. When I accepted his lyrics I insisted that he tell me nothing about his musical thoughts for the song. Instead I liked to do one of two things:
1 Try and figure out, from the lyrics, the musical thoughts he may have had for a song, and do my best to replicate them; or
2 Try and figure out, from the lyrics, the musical thoughts he may have had for a song, and do my best not to replicate them, i.e. to come up with something that I thought would be totally unexpected on his part.

I have to say that I enjoyed doing (2) more than (1).

However, the point of this was that there was no intrinsic musical rapport between us, and no strong understanding of how we liked to work (except for my insistence to be kept ignorant of his intentions).

[Frankie Rage]

Mr H: I think people submitting thoughts and support during the course of a Challenge would work well enough. On the other hand, if the person posing the particular Challenge suggests otherwise, then fine, we can comment at the end.

I don't think I can respond to more than one Challenge a month. But Mr H: Why don't you post a Challenge for May, or earlier/later, it's up to you, of course!

It would give Mr U a break if he wants one (or we can run two Challenges!) It's all good...

I for one would be happy to have a go at pretty much any Challenge set in this Forum.

My main reason for being here btw is to gain the motivation and possibly some assistance by way of ideas and tips etc. to start producing more professional demos.

I have a kit bag of a few hundred songs and song ideas and I am currently looking through it to find a hit or two! So my objective here along the way is to start producing "as close to professional quality demos" as possible to try to sell my songs for commercial gain! As well as producing "singer/song writer" versions to post under my own name.

A tall order you may say! A mountain probably! But they climb mountains "because they are there...!"

Some fall off!

An actor friend of mine has told me to, "..break a leg.."

[up-fiddler]

Originally Posted by Frankie Rage

Mr H: I think people submitting thoughts and support during the course of a Challenge would work well enough. On the other hand, if the person posing the particular Challenge suggests otherwise, then fine, we can comment at the end.

I don't think I can respond to more than one Challenge a month. But Mr H: Why don't you post a Challenge for May, or earlier/later, it's up to you, of course!

It would give Mr U a break if he wants one (or we can run two Challenges!) It's all good...

I have stated before and will say so again as humbly as possible. The Challenges were just a jump off point to get a number of us writing again a while back. They have been generally well received and have served their purpose. If Hakea, or anyone else, wants to lay one out there then I will certainly pull mine off the table for March. For that matter, the collab challenge could lay in limbo for any number of months and it wouldn't matter. I get no personal gain or satisfaction from the challenges other than the skills I aquire through them. I would MUCH rather be known as Dave the Songwriter than Dave the Challenge Man.

[Hakea]

Originally Posted by gecko zzed

In the past, the usual method was for up-fiddler to set a challenge with a deadline, at which point participants would post their results, which would then attract comments. For the last couple of challenges though, there has been a slightly different process, most likely my fault, because I decided to work on my response to a challenge on-line, rather than go away and come back at some time in the future with a completed response.

See (and which contains the rationale for withholding comments on this specific challenge with visible participation):http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=274969

The important point, though, is that there is nothing from preventing anyone submitting a challenge of some sort if they would like to see a particular project, or method of working, or whatever tackled. I like responding to challenges. They are . . . well . . . a challenge. But I dislike mounting challenges. I kind of like the unexpectedness of them, which you don't get if you raise them yourself.

Hi Gz,

Thanks for the clarifications. Good points.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to pin those rules at the top of the forum, if the challenge has become a regular feature? That seems to be the usual style elsewhere. It's not easy for new arrivals, such as myself, to guess what the rules are if they're not easily findable - or indeed if there are any rules.

I take your points about your preference for challenges where the individual works alone without ongoing feedback. The way it works at the other forum is obviously very different. Both have their merits, so there's no real reason to change if the method here suits the people involved. My suggestions were only responses to Dave's raising the topic of collaborations. No need to change if the current method already suits everybody.

In the time that I've been visiting this forum, I've not personally noticed many 'lyrics only' writers.

Fair enough, but it's a pretty common concern. Trying to get interested members of the group up to speed with both equipment and music/lyric matching skills always seems to limit the potential numbers of participants in some way. Now that I've read Dave's post that you linked to I see that it's his first point in the rules post too. Lack of equipment or ability sums it up neatly.

The reason for doing this is several of our forum responders don't have the ability/equipment to turn their lyrics into music.

That's always been an ongoing problem elsewhere too. There's a steady flow of eyeballs passing through most forums, including many lurkers who would like to join in but who either don't have the gear, or who haven't yet got the capability or confidence to take the plunge. In fact you don't need much gear, or much ability, to make a start. But it does boil down to whether the goal is to attract people who already have a minimum level of skill, or whether you're going to run some kind of nursery on the side too (which can be seen as anything from a bonus to a somewhat annoying distraction... ).


Cheers,

Chris

[Hakea]

Originally Posted by Frankie Rage

Mr H: I think people submitting thoughts and support during the course of a Challenge would work well enough. On the other hand, if the person posing the particular Challenge suggests otherwise, then fine, we can comment at the end.

I don't think I can respond to more than one Challenge a month. But Mr H: Why don't you post a Challenge for May, or earlier/later, it's up to you, of course!

One challenge a month seems plenty to me too, and Dave is clearly doing a great a job at it. A lot also depends on how much traffic you're getting. If there's several hundred people milling about looking for some action, then having different angles going on is fine. But if you have a smaller volume then trying to run several means that they can suck the life out of each other. When interest and traffic does build up past a certain point then splitting into into sub-forums can work to.

The place I'm thinking about has a general songwriting forum, plus one specifically for the weekly challenge, one for music composition (which sadly always seems to struggle to get enough numbers to keep the momentum going), another for collaborations, and yet another for showing off your mp3s etc. It seems to work well enough, partly because it has a fairly good core of long time regulars who keep each strand going, and also help out newcomers. But everywhere has its ups and downs.

My main reason for being here btw is to gain the motivation and possibly some assistance by way of ideas and tips etc. to start producing more professional demos.

I have a kit bag of a few hundred songs and song ideas and I am currently looking through it to find a hit or two! So my objective here along the way is to start producing "as close to professional quality demos" as possible to try to sell my songs for commercial gain! As well as producing "singer/song writer" versions to post under my own name.

My reasons are similar to yours, except that the commercial gain angle is not a priority. I didn't start playing until I was 58, so my aims are mostly to get as good as I can for my own satisfaction and enjoyment. The social side of it as a big attraction too - I really enjoy playing with others and generally talking about music. I've had my songs heard (and performed) by others now, so I'm not that bothered whether the audience is two or two million, I just want to keep improving all parts of the craft that I'm still bad at.

A tall order you may say! A mountain probably! But they climb mountains "because they are there...!"

All the best with the climb!

Cheers,

Chris

[up-fiddler]

Originally Posted by Hakea

....reasons are similar to yours, except that the commercial gain angle is not a priority. I didn't start playing until I was 58, so my aims are mostly to get as good as I can for my own satisfaction and enjoyment. The social side of it as a big attraction too - I really enjoy playing with others and generally talking about music. I've had my songs heard (and performed) by others now, so I'm not that bothered whether the audience is two or two million, I just want to keep improving all parts of the craft that I'm still bad at.....

As stated previously in another post, I feel you are selling yourself and your ability short. It is not uncommon to be more critical of our work than those who hear it for the first time. We are often sick of it by the time we post it. Other listeners haven't heard it the countless times we as writers have so it seems fresh to them. They are also listening without bias and that can be very helpful to us as writers. They will often hear and interpret things that we overlook as authors. Your efforts are great and very welcome here. I would recommend that you keep posting examples.of your work.

Regarding the "Sticky" thing, I have been here for several years now and still don't know who the moderator for this section is. It has never been an issue, but the "Sticky" might be both useful and helpful to others who are passing through. Good idea. Dave aka up-fiddler

[Chili]

Originally Posted by Hakea

Hi Gz,

Thanks for the clarifications. Good points.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to pin those rules at the top of the forum, if the challenge has become a regular feature?

If the monthly challenges do become more of a regular feature, we can make stickies to help you guys. Let me know what you would like pinned.

cheers.

[Chili]

Originally Posted by up-fiddler

Regarding the "Sticky" thing, I have been here for several years now and still don't know who the moderator for this section is. It has never been an issue, but the "Sticky" might be both useful and helpful to others who are passing through. Good idea. Dave aka up-fiddler

Oops, didn't get this far before replying to Chris' post. MSHilarious, Noisedude, True-eurt, Dobro and myself are the mods. There are a couple supermods who don't participate in the forums on a regular basis.

Let me what you would like pinned.

Thanks,

[Frankie Rage]

I come from a site (which shall remain nameless to protect the guilty..) which was or seemed to be, dominated by mods.

That we don't know who the mods are in this forum to me is a GOOD THING!

Well done, HR.com mods for being (relatively) unknown!

[Whatmysay]

Originally Posted by up-fiddler

[/I]. I would MUCH rather be known as Dave the Songwriter than Dave the Challenge Man.

I climb hundreds of mountains and they do not call me Dave the mountain climber - but one goat! just one goat . . .

I'm in for the collaboration challenge.

I'm just asking why rules? Has anyone been offended by the process of the challenge thus far? Does anyone feel they are less productive than they could be verses worry about rules?

Just being the devil's advocate, but why are we messing with the challenges if it is efficient and non-offensive?

Collaboration will mean a commitment to another party, but that is just basic respect, do we have to demarcate it?

[Whatmysay]

Originally Posted by Frankie Rage

I come from a site (which shall remain nameless to protect the guilty..) which was or seemed to be, dominated by mods.

That we don't know who the mods are in this forum to me is a GOOD THING!

Well done, HR.com mods for being (relatively) unknown!

I feel better knowing I'm moderated - I need all the help I can get

Frankie I thought you were talking about the music style at first (mods) and envisaged people on Union Jack Vespas dominating your last forum. Got it now - I'm a slow learner but when I learn something it sticks, I think

[gecko zzed]

Originally Posted by Whatmysay

I climb hundreds of mountains and they do not call me Dave the mountain climber - but one goat! just one goat . . .

I'm in for the collaboration challenge.

I'm just asking why rules? Has anyone been offended by the process of the challenge thus far? Does anyone feel they are less productive than they could be verses worry about rules?

Just being the devil's advocate, but why are we messing with the challenges if it is efficient and non-offensive?

Collaboration will mean a commitment to another party, but that is just basic respect, do we have to demarcate it?

Being a latent anarchist, I like your devil's advocacy!!

To go one step further, I wouldn't be too concerned if the challenge process was inefficient (though I'd draw the line at offensive).

But the most important statement for me is your last sentence. Furthermore, I continue to frequent this forum because of the high level of respect shown to contributors. I know that there have been the occasional burst from flame-throwers, but these have been rare, and haven't contaminated the forum itself.

So I'd like to see this forum continue as a place where anybody can contribute without feeling silly, without feeling inadequate, and without being publically humiliated.

Hakea made this observation: "But it does boil down to whether the goal is to attract people who already have a minimum level of skill, or whether you're going to run some kind of nursery on the side too", and from my preceding remarks I conclude that I don't think it needs to boil down to anything, and that it is not necessary to even consider a goal.

[up-fiddler]

Originally Posted by gecko zzed

.....So I'd like to see this forum continue as a place where anybody can contribute without feeling silly, without feeling inadequate, and without being publically humiliated.....

Bingo! +1

[Whatmysay]

Let water find its level

[Hakea]

GZ said:
.....So I'd like to see this forum continue as a place where anybody can contribute without feeling silly, without feeling inadequate, and without being publically humiliated.....

Bingo! +1

Originally Posted by up-fiddler

Bingo! +1

+ another one from here to.

These are a few ways that I have seen stickied FAQ sheets assist towards that aim:


Welcome and General:

FAQs are an opportunity to extend a warm welcome and provide any useful guidelines to follow. Many people feel reluctant to jump in if they feel that they might get flamed for transgressing some hidden set of rules or expectations. Any particular rules can be explained, but general hints can be given too. For instance, it’s an opportunity to point out that nobody is paid to help you here, so if you want some feedback, assistance or just praise, then a good first step is to make yourself known by trying to offer comments to other people’s posts or work.

Current Goals:

Details of any current challenges or projects can be displayed where they’re easy to find.

Equipment:

Many beginners don’t have the equipment to record their ideas, let alone the ability. FAQs can answer some of the most commonly asked questions about a simple and inexpensive starter setup. Often this information is available in dribs and drabs multiple times all round sites but is never collated into a single FAQ, so the same questions get asked over and over.

Other Useful Information:

Some forums also include stickies with lists of past challenges (with an invitation to try any of them at any time). Another possibility is including links to posts or sites with particularly good information on related topics - i.e. it could be arrangement, harmony, theory, lyric writing, overcoming ‘Block’, using specific tools or techniques, or whatever.

Originally Posted by Whatmysay

Let water find its level

I understand the good implications of what you’re saying. But I also know that this can mean learning to live with a flooded basement and mildew on the walls. I tend to prefer installing a pump or applying some technical effort to sealing the place.

I don't think there's much doubt that it's worth doing, but the trick is always finding a willing and able tradesman to actually do the work for you...If not, then I guess that gumboots and grumbling can work too. Horse for courses...

Cheers,

Chris

[noisedude]

Originally Posted by Frankie Rage

I come from a site (which shall remain nameless to protect the guilty..) which was or seemed to be, dominated by mods.

That we don't know who the mods are in this forum to me is a GOOD THING!

Well done, HR.com mods for being (relatively) unknown!

Did someone say "mods"?

I came as quickly as I could.

I can highly recommend UK-founded bass players' forum Basschat, but god help you if you swear in there, you'll find out very quickly who the mods are!


That is all, carry on with your excellent collaboration plans, maybe one year I'll have time to play an instrument again!