Scream vocal processing

[kmatt]

need some help processing a scream vocal on a hardcore CD.

the singer is inconsistent at times and his scream sounds very weak at times.

what can help fatten them up? compression? delay?


thanks
kyle

[jmorris]

Originally Posted by kmatt

need some help processing a scream vocal on a hardcore CD.

the singer is inconsistent at times and his scream sounds very weak at times.

what can help fatten them up? compression? delay?


thanks
kyle

well, answer could be anything from wrong mic selection to improper distance.Explain your setup,mic, mic position etc.

[kmatt]

well i wasnt the one that recorded them so i was not responsible for this but...
the singer held the mic, and varied distances while recording. i am told they used an sm58 and a room mic of which is unknown.

i was given the tracks to make them sound better and im at a loss for what to do

thanks for the quick reply

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by kmatt

i was given the tracks to make them sound better and im at a loss for what to do

If the vocals are really THAT uneven, what you should do is return the tracks and tell whomever tracked the vocals to get it right in tracking.

I'd bet my next paycheck that the problem is a vocalist who has no idea how to work their voice and their microphone in unison. But since the tracker and the vocalist probably won't have the experience to make those corrections reliably, it'll eventually be up to you to try and close the barn door after the horses have already fled.

You can try evening the volume by automating the gain on the vocal track, but there may still be tonal differences between the passages. You can *try* mitigating those differences with a little gentle EQ by ear, but frankly if the singer is inconsistent, he's going to sound inconsistent.

G.

[mattr]

People will probably frown at me for the following suggestions, but I've had compliments from bands before about how my scream vocals sound (even if everything else in the mix sounds poor!). Like anything its a bit hit-and-miss and remember there are many types of screaming, probably much more varied in their needs for processing than normal vocals which (if recorded well) don't require much / any at all. I agree that the best answer would be to retrack them but sometimes that's not an option / not worth it if its only a demo, therefore I'm going to go ahead with my nattering anyway...

Compress. Hard. Give it hell. Find a nice compressor (hardware or plugin) which sounds good when rammed hard and gives some nice saturation. Try doing some parallel compression with this.

Add some subtle distortion of any kind, but don't overdo it...
Tube saturation / overdrive / distortion
Tape saturation
Sidechain a gate to open up on some white noise

The original vocalist doesn't have to do this - you can quite easily do it yourself...
Record the track again but say it in a loud whisper. Try to keep the timing as tight and close to the original track as possible, and sibilance in this case can actually be quite good. It sounds weird but whispering in such a way can sound "like" screaming (with a bit of imagination!). You can pan these wide to add some width. Compress hard if you want the tracks to add 'body' to the scream, or leave uncompressed and EQ them if you want to use them to add some high-end detail.

Some wide, large, 'dark' sounding reverb can make the screaming sound a lot, erm, 'bigger'. Don't swamp the mix with verb though - leave it unnoticeable in the background.

HPF everything, and depending on the context some massacring with EQ may be needed. Cutting out any unnecessary lows means you can bring it higher in the mix without muddying up the low-end. Like anything, think about where things have space in the mix... if the scream vocal is the only vocal you can afford to leave it quite 'full', but if its backing a lead vocal then you might want to think differently about how it needs to sit in the mix and what you can 'discard' with EQ to remove clutter. For these kind of backing screams I normally bring the HPF up quite high and add another wide band to scoop out a bit of the mids above this, and then hype the highs to give it some more presence.

For that 'epic roar' sound, a gate with a slow attack can imitate that nice building fade into the roar. Some reverse reverb can also give a similar effect. This is one of the things that is best to try and achieve this during tracking though if you know you want the effect. Multi-tap delays can also be interesting.

Basically, go crazy!
I'm ready to take the flak

[kmatt]

thanks for the very well thought out info, now let me ask this......

what compression ratio would be considered a lot, or near the amount that i should strive for? 15:1?

also with the HPF, the screamer screams very low at times, and middle to high at others. would the HPF no be good to use becuase of this?

lastly, is it possible, with limiting, to make the parts of his scream that dont quite "have balls" to distort a bit more?


thanks again
kyle

[I Got Riffs]

I don't know much about the hardcore style, but I do know that doing death metal or black metal right is all about the singer. If it sounds weak dry, then I doubt effects will improve anything.

If you're involved with the tracking at all next time, note that double-tracking certain key lyrics or lines helps tremendously. Just as a melodic vocalist would pepper in harmonies, a screamer/growler should know where to add his atonal harmonies, creatively pan them, etc.

If you're not part of the band and just a hired hand to make it sound better, I'd tell them there was nothing I could do. Even if you do find something that helps, it's still not going to sound comparable to a pro recording and hopefully they'll know that the problem is the singer.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by mattr

probably much more varied in their needs for processing than normal vocals which (if recorded well) don't require much / any at all.

The main reason they are much more varied in their needs for processing is *because the voclaist has no idea what they are doing*. Yeah, it's screaming, but even that requires some vocal and technique discipline. You can't expect to just go up and scream willy-nilly and expect to have it sound good.

Three words: Work the microphone.

Originally Posted by mattr

I agree that the best answer would be to retrack them but sometimes that's not an option / not worth it if its only a demo

Yet it's worth spending an hour on a 3-minute vocal track force-fitting a square peg recording into a round hole mix? Spending an hour at least punching the track if not re-tracking entirely will usually provide better results for less of a sweat.

And, BTW, if it's a demo, the screamer had better learn to work that mic in live situations anyway unless you want to play every gig only once.

G.

[jmorris]

Originally Posted by mattr

People will probably frown at me for the following suggestions, but I've had compliments from bands before about how my scream vocals sound (even if everything else in the mix sounds poor!). Like anything its a bit hit-and-miss and remember there are many types of screaming, probably much more varied in their needs for processing than normal vocals which (if recorded well) don't require much / any at all. I agree that the best answer would be to retrack them but sometimes that's not an option / not worth it if its only a demo, therefore I'm going to go ahead with my nattering anyway...

Compress. Hard. Give it hell. Find a nice compressor (hardware or plugin) which sounds good when rammed hard and gives some nice saturation. Try doing some parallel compression with this.

Add some subtle distortion of any kind, but don't overdo it...
Tube saturation / overdrive / distortion
Tape saturation
Sidechain a gate to open up on some white noise

The original vocalist doesn't have to do this - you can quite easily do it yourself...
Record the track again but say it in a loud whisper. Try to keep the timing as tight and close to the original track as possible, and sibilance in this case can actually be quite good. It sounds weird but whispering in such a way can sound "like" screaming (with a bit of imagination!). You can pan these wide to add some width. Compress hard if you want the tracks to add 'body' to the scream, or leave uncompressed and EQ them if you want to use them to add some high-end detail.

Some wide, large, 'dark' sounding reverb can make the screaming sound a lot, erm, 'bigger'. Don't swamp the mix with verb though - leave it unnoticeable in the background.

HPF everything, and depending on the context some massacring with EQ may be needed. Cutting out any unnecessary lows means you can bring it higher in the mix without muddying up the low-end. Like anything, think about where things have space in the mix... if the scream vocal is the only vocal you can afford to leave it quite 'full', but if its backing a lead vocal then you might want to think differently about how it needs to sit in the mix and what you can 'discard' with EQ to remove clutter. For these kind of backing screams I normally bring the HPF up quite high and add another wide band to scoop out a bit of the mids above this, and then hype the highs to give it some more presence.

For that 'epic roar' sound, a gate with a slow attack can imitate that nice building fade into the roar. Some reverse reverb can also give a similar effect. This is one of the things that is best to try and achieve this during tracking though if you know you want the effect. Multi-tap delays can also be interesting.

Basically, go crazy!
I'm ready to take the flak

My god! Its only a screem, why are you trying to make it into rocket science?? ( which reminds me, what do the guys at NASA say?) If you have to all that...something is wrong!!!

[mattr]

Hahaa, I said I was ready to get frowned at didn't I? Not exactly unexpected responses I didn't say you had to do *all* that processing, but you do have to go fairly heavily on scream vocals. I certainly would never do anything that drastic to normal vocals.

And I know you don't like all 'us kids with our toys' who evidently have no understanding of theory or technique as we go about our stereotypical ways with our overuse of hard panning, drastic timing and pitch correction, drum replacement and excessive track layering. We all obviously have no idea whatsoever what we're doing, because if we did we'd all be mixing our metal demos in the same way that you would mix your techincally-perfect delicate classic rock.

So what?
This is home recording - its meant to be fun and rewarding, not 'lets play at running a pretend professional studio'.
That's what gearslutz is for.


And in my defense about my technical competence... Yes, I have recorded more delicate stuff which caused me no stress. Personally I find heavy rock / metal to be the most challenging genre to record. I'm a classically-trained musician to a high standard (I've been playing the piano since I was 4) so I have good technical and musical understanding of performances. I have a good ear and can critically pick out faults in musical performances and mixes straight away (I may not be able to fix them in my own mixes yet, but that's all part of learning). I've also done live sound reinforcement for music in situations where the amplification has to be 'transparent' and unnoticeable to the audience; admittedly quite difficult but I managed fine and it was fun nonetheless - proof that I'm not an idiot as you seem to like labeling all 16-year-olds on this forum.


You want to know the best thing?
I've never played rock / metal in my life.
I mainly play jazz.


<? end_rant(); ?>

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by mattr

So what? This is home recording - its meant to be fun and rewarding, not 'lets play at running a pretend professional studio'.

Oh, bullshit. You kids keep asking how you can get your stuff to sound like professional recordings. That means nothing more and nothing less than you want to make a professional recording yourself.

Then the instant someone come along and tells you that it requires some actual professionalism in attitude and not just an Easy button on a piece of software, then you start whining that "this is only home recording".

Fine, you don't want to put the actual effort into it and just want to have fun, no problem. But then you lose your right to complain about the quality of the results.



BTW, Gearslutz is for gear sluts. The only gear slut in this thread is the one who thinks studio trickery can replace artistic performance.

G.

[mattr]

Exactly what I mean about stereotyping. In your eyes, everyone young who has an interest in recording heavy-ish music has to be the same.

The other day I spent 2 hours experimenting and positioning mics on a drum kit just to record one 3 minute song.

I helped out the drummer by having the guitarist play along with him - I had an amp mic'd up in an iso booth which fed into the headphone mixes so the guitarist could play along with him in the live room without any bleed. Both the drummer and the guitarist had their own headphone mix so they could hear exactly what they wanted. All three of us had our own talkback mics so we could easily communicate with each other.

If that isn't professionalism then I don't know what is?

And BTW, I record and mix in Sonar. I never use plugin presets. I follow my ears and do what sounds ok to me. Is that really following the "Easy button" route?


I've had a long day and I'm really not in the mood.
I give in. You win. You can feel happy and smug and warm inside now.

[legionserial]

Glen. I've always had a fair amount of respect for you, but in the context of this specific thread, i think you're being a bit hard on some of the guys here.

It's all well and good saying that the best option in this situation is to retrack the vocals, but the OP has made it pretty clear that he is a) not the vocalist and b) not the recording guy. He's been charged with the task of pulling something decent out of what he's got.

Sure, he can give it back to them and tell them to retrack, with the possible result being that they'll tell him to get fucked and ask someone else to do it. Maybe he doesn't want to do that. Maybe he wants to have a go at it. I don't really think that's a crime.

Given that, someone else has posted some possible options. Yet you still seem to be stuck on the idea that this guy needs to retrack. Let's just say for a second, strange it might seem, that it's not actually an option for him.

Yup, in a perfect world he'd go back and get it retracked. But in a perfect world I think we'd all be a lot better off than we actually are. It's not a perfect world. Sometimes you've just gotta work with what you've got.

I completely agree with your sentiments about these kids that come and ask how to make a professional recording, but don't want to accept that there's work involved, but I don't think it's fair to say that this is in any way a similar circumstance. The OP never asked how to make it sound professional, he asked for suggestion to help improve what he has pretty much admitted is a bad situation. I can't see what's wrong with that.

Yeah, I think he should go back to the vocalist and the recording guy and tell them what was wrong for reference next time. Hey, they might even agree to retrack. But just going back and saying "these tracks are fucked. I'm not working with them. Do 'em again" might be shooting himself in the foot somewhat.

[mattr]

@OP...
Back on topic, here are some plugins which may be of use to you.
I recommend trying just the blockfish compressor to begin with. You can tame most things well with it.
If the levels are *really* inconsistent, consider setting up some 'riding the fader' automation to make them more consistent without compression.


The Blockfish compressor...
http://www.digitalfishphones.com/mai...em=2&subItem=5




"Ferox" (about halfway down the page)
http://www.jeroenbreebaart.com/audio_vst.htm
Tape saturation. Use lightly.

Endorphin compressor...
http://www.digitalfishphones.com/mai...em=2&subItem=3

The Reaper plugins collection...
http://www.reaper.fm/reaplugs/

Nebula looks quite interesting. I've had a play but not used it in anything yet...
http://www.acusticaudio.net/modules....le=nebula3free

[legionserial]

The Kjaerhus Classic set are pretty good too for free.

http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/classic-series.php

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by legionserial

Glen. I've always had a fair amount of respect for you, but in the context of this specific thread, i think you're being a bit hard on some of the guys here.

I don't *enjoy* taking this line, believe me. No mattr, I do not feel warm and fuzzy and snug inside. I'd feel much better if *I* were not stereotyped against as being a jerk who enjoys having to take this line.

It is a FACT that way too many people on this board *of all ages* have been erroneously led to believe that they can just step in front of a microphone, make any noise they want, and all they have to do to sound like the second coming is throw enough post-processing at it.

In this specific case, the OP himself described the problem as "the singer is inconsistent at times and his scream sounds very weak at times." There is only one real, best answer for this symptom, and that answer is to get a better performance out of the singer. If it takes multiple takes or punches, so be it. It's a LOT easier than post-processing it.

If this were photography and not music, everybody would be laughing at the idea of showing up to have one's portrait taken with greasy, messy hair, needing a shave, dressed in rags, etc., and then just asking the photographer to Photoshop out the problems. Even if they guy were absolutely brilliant at re-touching photos, nobody would just count on that. They'd make sure that they at least showered and shaved before the picture were even taken.

Yet you suggest that kind of thing here, and you're prosecuted for being elitist or worse.

It's all baloney.

If you are indeed "making a demo", then you are doing more than "just having fun", just like if you're having a photog take your portrait, you're doing more than just snapping a cell phone pic of your buddy at a party. It only makes sense that you at least *attempt* to do it right.

Originally Posted by legionserial

Yeah, I think he should go back to the vocalist and the recording guy and tell them what was wrong for reference next time. Hey, they might even agree to retrack. But just going back and saying "these tracks are fucked. I'm not working with them. Do 'em again" might be shooting himself in the foot somewhat.

I agree with you, legion. Nowhere did I suggest that he be an asshole about it.

I have never accepted the attitude that a person can be considered knowledgeable enough go trust one's mix to, but not knowledgeable enough to advise that the tracks need improvement first. More often than not, the mix engineer is simply afraid to say so.

I have to ask, what good is it to bypass the chance that if you explain it right, that they WILL go back and punch over the bad parts at the cost of taking the larger chance that the "client" will not be as happy with the result, and may think twice about coming back to you a second time because they asked you to make caviar out of a turd?

G.

[legionserial]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

I don't *enjoy* taking this line, believe me. No mattr, I do not feel warm and fuzzy and snug inside. I'd feel much better if *I* were not stereotyped against as being a jerk who enjoys having to take this line.

It is a FACT that way too many people on this board *of all ages* have been erroneously led to believe that they can just step in front of a microphone, make any noise they want, and all they have to do to sound like the second coming is throw enough post-processing at it.

In this specific case, the OP himself described the problem as "the singer is inconsistent at times and his scream sounds very weak at times." There is only one real, best answer for this symptom, and that answer is to get a better performance out of the singer. If it takes multiple takes or punches, so be it. It's a LOT easier than post-processing it.

If this were photography and not music, everybody would be laughing at the idea of showing up to have one's portrait taken with greasy, messy hair, needing a shave, dressed in rags, etc., and then just asking the photographer to Photoshop out the problems. Even if they guy were absolutely brilliant at re-touching photos, nobody would just count on that. They'd make sure that they at least showered and shaved before the picture were even taken.

Yet you suggest that kind of thing here, and you're prosecuted for being elitist or worse.

It's all baloney.

If you are indeed "making a demo", then you are doing more than "just having fun", just like if you're having a photog take your portrait, you're doing more than just snapping a cell phone pic of your buddy at a party. It only makes sense that you at least *attempt* to do it right.I agree with you, legion. Nowhere did I suggest that he be an asshole about it.

I have never accepted the attitude that a person can be considered knowledgeable enough go trust one's mix to, but not knowledgeable enough to advise that the tracks need improvement first. More often than not, the mix engineer is simply afraid to say so.

I have to ask, what good is it to bypass the chance that if you explain it right, that they WILL go back and punch over the bad parts at the cost of taking the larger chance that the "client" will not be as happy with the result, and may think twice about coming back to you a second time because they asked you to make caviar out of a turd?

G.

I completely agree with all your points. We know what the best solution is. We went over that and it's not possible seemingly....so I think it's a little unfair to give mattr a hard time for offering some things to try, when we'd all already acknowledged the whole retrack/can't retrack thing.

I undersand what you're saying about attempting to polish a turd and inadvertantly shooting yourself in the foot when crummy results are yeilded, but I figure that's the OP's call. He's made his decision, but more importantly, so has the vocalist and the recording guy.

Believe me, most of my sentiments about this kind of thing are similar to yours. I'm not trying to disagree with you, or call you an elitist. I just don't see the harm -in this particular situation at least- in offering workarouds, The most important thing is that it's understood that there are better solutions.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by legionserial

I completely agree with all your points. We know what the best solution is. We went over that and it's not possible seemingly....so I think it's a little unfair to give mattr a hard time for offering some things to try, when we'd all already acknowledged the whole retrack/can't retrack thing.

I undersand what you're saying about attempting to polish a turd and inadvertantly shooting yourself in the foot when crummy results are yeilded, but I figure that's the OP's call. He's made his decision, but more importantly, so has the vocalist and the recording guy.

Believe me, most of my sentiments about this kind of thing are similar to yours. I'm not trying to disagree with you, or call you an elitist. I just don't see the harm -in this particular situation at least- in offering workarouds, The most important thing is that it's understood that there are better solutions.

OK, I admit I kinda came across as the heavy in this (and many other) threads when it was perhaps not absolutely necessary to do so. But, let's back up and re-read this thread and see what actually happened here:

First, in my original replay, even after I recommend the re-track thing, I offered up the following additional advice:

"You can try evening the volume by automating the gain on the vocal track, but there may still be tonal differences between the passages. You can *try* mitigating those differences with a little gentle EQ by ear, but frankly if the singer is inconsistent, he's going to sound inconsistent."

So yes, I did offer up some additional advice beyond that, along with my reason why such additional advice was a lesser choice.

This was followed by mattr's advice, much of which was good for processing screaming, but none of which will truly remove the "weakness" from the vocalists screams. Matt made reference several times in that post that he knew we was going to draw flack with that post, even ending it with:

"Basically, Go crazy.
I'm ready to take the flak. "

And you'll notice that I did not respond to his processing advice, but rather specifically to the "this is only home recording" line, which as you've been around enough to know is a complete red herring excuse used here all the time and is pure baloney. So, yeah, I did give him flack for the "this is only home recording" line. That excuse has got to stop. Apparently he wasn't as ready for it as he claimed.

So, in summary:

- I did give further advice other than re-track and (and in fact was the first in the thread to do so (after jm asked for more info), and then further explained why that was a second choice.

- Mattr literally asked for tough rebuttal ("flak") and said he was ready to take it.

- My rebut had nothing to do with his specific advice, only with his use of the long-ago discredited "this is only home recording" gambit.

Could I have used better language than "bullshit"? Yeah, OK, I admit that was not very diplomatic of me, I could have said it nicer. For that I apologize.

But for my stand or my opinion, I don't. Listen, I have some legitimate questions here for which I am at a loss to think of any legitimate answers: I honestly, and with an open hand (not a closed fist) to everyone would like to ask these questions here:

I can understand how with larger bands (for lack of a better term offhand, "more professional" bands) how re-tracking can not be an option: they are butting up against an album release.tour date deadline, they don't have the budget for any more tracking studio time, they had a guest artist who was only available on a certain day, etc. But with a bunch of home recordists "just having fun" or even a band just making their first demo on their own time with their own gear for nothing, how is re-tracking not an option? Even if they are on a deadline to get a demo to a venue to try and get a specific gig date (which those not of legal age are not doing), how is spending one more hour in the garage/basement/wherever going to screw up that deadline? What IS the hurry?

Why do the vast majority of newbs find it more enjoyable or somehow intrinsically better to minimize the amount of time playing and honing their performance in the studio and maximize the amount of time they spend twiddling knobs in the control room? It's so much easier - and the results will be better - to spend an extra hour punching in weak spots in the performance than it is spending an hour chasing a phantom mix at the desk. Especially since these guys and gals are ostensibly musicians first and home recordists second; one would think that there'd be much greater enjoyment in playing or singing the music and greater satisfaction in getting it right one's self rather than sitting there listening to a playback of a subpar recording over and over only to have some wares do it for you. I know that as a harp player, I'd take much more pride and would much rather blow the proper performance and sound into the mic than try to synthesize it behind the glass. Even if it took me 30 takes to do it, at least I'd know and be able to say that "I* did it, and not some little black box.

And why, for God's sake, is it such a crime to ask these questions or to call "bull...loney" ( ) on them?

G.

[bigtoe]

you know glen, it's not a crime but you come off like a class a jerk to those who don't know better and an stupendous ass to those who do.

your answers in these cases that no one knows what they're doing but people like you just aren't very helpful.

i personally don't accuse you of being elitist - i don't see that anywhere here - i just think you're a blowhard with not much experience. i kinda doubt you've ever been the old school professional you claim to defend. your professional demeanor isn't. your professional advice honestly isn't very either.

happy valentines day...and to the OP - try compressing the backing track with the vocal feeding the sidechain.

Mike

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by bigtoe

you know glen, it's not a crime but you come off like a class a jerk to those who don't know better and an stupendous ass to those who do.

your answers in these cases that no one knows what they're doing but people like you just aren't very helpful.

i personally don't accuse you of being elitist - i don't see that anywhere here - i just think you're a blowhard with not much experience. i kinda doubt you've ever been the old school professional you claim to defend. your professional demeanor isn't. your professional advice honestly isn't very either.

happy valentines day...and to the OP - try compressing the backing track with the vocal feeding the sidechain.

Mike

Mike, not to turn this into a "let's take sides" kind of war, and you're entitled to your opinion on how you see someone coming off. But I completely disagree with your post.

I think Glen gives great advice 99.99% of the time. He's rarely wrong about the technical advice he gives, and I do find him being polite and diplomatic most of the time. And when he does come off a little "heavy", he's man enough to admit it, like he did in his last post.

He makes great points in his last post about wondering why people are happier turning knobs trying to fix something, instead of doing what they SHOULD really enjoy doing, which is playing and/or singing.

I don't see the blow-hard aspect at all. Sometimes people just don't want to hear the truth, and get offended when it's presented to them.

Personally, I'm also sick of people claiming this is just home recording, and it's all for fun, yet at the same time, saying they want to get "CD quality" or "pro-sounding" results.

I don't know you, have nothing against you, and for all I know, you may have way more experience than Glen. But I've been here long enough to see that Glen has helped more people than most of us in this place. His inter-active EQ chart alone has probably been dowloaded by more peole than any other document on this site.

Just my opinion.

[thebigcheese]

Personally, I agree with everything Glen said. So chill, people. Everyone has some valid points, so stop getting all offended by everything. Sheesh.

As mattr suggested, compression and a little distortion are good things to do. For one of my band's songs, we wanted to have him screaming (sort of) for the last chorus. It sounded alright, but it was missing something. So I compressed it to even out the volume and make all of it loud, then added a send to a track with a distortion plug-in on it for a little something else in the background. I think it came out really well.

As Glen suggested, it might still be necessary to retrack. If he's moving away from the mic while singing, it's not just volume that's going to be the issue. There are other things that happen that shape our perception of distance. If he is noticeably inconsistent now, then your best option is to start by retracking, then move on to mattr's suggestions. And frankly, why was he holding the mic while tracking? I don't care if he is screaming, that just has "problem take" written all over it. Tell him not to do that.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by thebigcheese

it's not just volume that's going to be the issue.

That's exactly the point (and one BTW learned from EXPERIENCE), that a weak scream brought up to the same volume as a strong scream will be *louder*, but is still going to *sound* like a weaker scream. The voice changes. Compression and distortion and all those gizmos are fine for developing the "hardcore sound", and the stuff mattr suggested is fine for that. But it's likely that it won't fix the OP's main problem all that well.

May I point to the thread just started today by someone else asking for how to get "level vocals", and check out Massive Master's response. That's all I'm saying.

@Toe: let's hear your helpful answers to MY questions. How is it that when I ask questions I get every few actual responses from hotheads like you. You're all over bitching about other people's responses but offer none of your own. I have asked SEVERAL questions here that I'd love to hear your answers to.

G.

[legionserial]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

Why do the vast majority of newbs find it more enjoyable or somehow intrinsically better to minimize the amount of time playing and honing their performance in the studio and maximize the amount of time they spend twiddling knobs in the control room?

Because they know full well that a good performance requires them to do a bit of their own hard work. Unfortunately they are also under the misapprehension that there is formula to compensate for this in mixing using computers and such.

Of course, we know that isn't the case, which makes all the more amusing those threads where someone insists that there must be a formula and that it's some secret that the 'professionals' are keeping form them.

Like I say, I agree with your sentiments. Please don't mistake me as advocating cutting corners or turd polishing. I wish I did...tracking would be a hell of a lot quicker.

[bigtoe]

Gee Glen, I answered your question:

"And why, for God's sake, is it such a crime to ask these questions or to call "bull...loney" ( ) on them?"

and i thought i was very helpful in answering. hothead? no i'm just shooting the poo here...much like yourself.

i'm not defending the op nor what i think were some good answers...but he certainly didn't seem to be asking anything out of line. answering him with an "obvious hammer" (re track the vocals? GENIUS!) while pointing out what a professional you are and how everytime you try to show someone the light you get crucified?

i call bullshit on that. why? because you asked why.

I think the op is doing what an audio engineer is paid to do: figure it out. if it needs to be taken back to formula - well maybe it will come to that...but throwing in the towel before trying anything and asking for better tracks?

lame.

i don't have all the chops in the book by a long shot...as an engineer i'm an average journeyman at best....but i work on tracks tracked by lesser humans or lesser conditions and just by bands who might not be super pro and i make something out of them. sometimes it takes a hell of a lot of firepower just to get the thing to suck a lot less. it's called "the job."

closing, i don't answer most of your other questions because they're most often hypothetical and designed to get the answer you want and honestly man, you usually just talk way too much.

Mike

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by bigtoe

i don't have all the chops in the book by a long shot...as an engineer i'm an average journeyman at best....but i work on tracks tracked by lesser humans or lesser conditions and just by bands who might not be super pro and i make something out of them. sometimes it takes a hell of a lot of firepower just to get the thing to suck a lot less. it's called "the job."

Do your clients ever wonder why that stuff winds up shrink wrapped and under the bed (to use your own quote)? Is "the job" to take their money just to give them something to keep their Playboys company down there?

When working with newbs who know even less about the recording racket than you do, there is *absolutely nothing wrong* with recommending to them that they punch up their tracks a bit first because, despite what they see on Star Trek and CSI: Peoria, there is only so much magic that computers can do. The worst that can happen - assuming you have the temperament for the job and explain it to them properly - is that they will say they cannot, for whatever excuse they give, and you'll just be back where you started 30 second ago. No harm, no foul.

But it, IMHonestO, is doing them a disservice to just take pay (or even do for free) to do a second-best job without at least explaining and recommending the first best option to them first. "The job" is to take care of the client in the best way you know how. If you tried it, IME you'd be surprised at just how often it actually works.

Originally Posted by bigtoe

i don't answer most of your other questions because they're most often hypothetical and designed to get the answer you want and honestly man, you usually just talk way too much.

There is nothing hypothetical about my questions. They are legitimite questions for which I *think* I understand the answers to, but the answers just don't make any sense. So maybe I am missing something, alright? Since you are so much more knowledgeable than I, and since all I do is blow shit up everybody's skirt, I was really hoping you could correct me and eduamacate me - along with everyone else, Sergeant.