Recording an acoustic duo

[Guitarer]

My friend and I have been writing as an acoustic duo and I'm getting ready to do some recordings of our stuff. I've done a lot of experimenting with recording a single acoustic and have managed to get some very good sounds (imho), but I'm at a loss when it comes to 2 guitars.

The biggest issue I'm facing is mono vs. stereo. I always record my guitar in stereo, but would I want to do that if I have 2?

I currently am using a pair of modded 603S. If I should go mono, should I go with an LDC instead? Should I record both guitars in stereo, then criss cross them with hard panning?

How would you guys go about doing it? This is for soft indie rock by the way.

I'm also considering stepping up to either a pair of MK-012s, a pair of SM81s, or a single AT4050

[tojo]

You could get an audio interface with a couple mic pres on it. If it's firewire (and usb 2.0) you can record each channel seperately. So:

let's say you have a motu 8 pre. On the back as you can see, there are 8 microphone - 1/4 inputs. SO: You can plug in 4 mics to the first 4 mic pres. Then you connect it to your software and then the sofware will see that the motu 8pre is connected, and you can record each track with a different mic. essentially you can record 8 seperate channels, or in your case, 2 stereo channels at once. I haven't tried this but I know it works, as I've worked with other audio interfaces (about to get an edirol fa101! hopefully)

on a whole other note you could record each persons part one at a time (multi-tracking/ over dubbing or whatever its called)

for example: you record your guitar track. Then you make a new tracks in your software and record over top of it for your friend.

it would be really helpful if you indicated what gear you have, apart from your mics (do you have a mixer, audio interface, pci card whatever)

[Guitarer]

I suppose I should have mentioned that I plan on doing everything individually (each guitar and each vocal), and also only have the ability to record 2 tracks at once. I will be using an Apogee Duet (As soon as my damn tax return gets here >.<)

Multitracking is not something I need to be schooled in. My question is, with 2 guitars, what would be the best way to go about recording each?

[tojo]

well there you go, right? You can just record each track individually. your guitar stereo then your friends guitar stereo (might lead to a dense mix, but whatever floats your boat)

[Guitarer]

Originally Posted by tojo

(might lead to a dense mix, but whatever floats your boat)

Which is why I ask the question in the first place. I don't necessarily want a dense mix. I want what sounds good. I want to know if I'd be better off recording in mono with an LDC since I'd be creating a stereo image by having 2 guitars. I would love to experiment, but I don't own an LDC.

[tojo]

oh okay, sorry i didn't catch on. Well I might consider different things depending on what you are recording. But in general I'd stick with a small diaphragm condenser. I haven't had direct experience with a ldc for guiar but have used one that's similar - an mdc - medium diaphragm condenser. It's an at2020... or so i've been told that its a medium diaphragm. It sounds good, but I want to stick with sdcs for acoustic recording, especially if you have a matchd pair you'll get a similar sound.

btw, i'm guessing your on a mac right? because the apogee duet works only on a mac (i'm on a mac too, and am 17 too. can i hear some of your stuff when you record it ( i love acoustic / indie)

[gecko zzed]

Originally Posted by Guitarer

My friend and I have been writing as an acoustic duo and I'm getting ready to do some recordings of our stuff. I've done a lot of experimenting with recording a single acoustic and have managed to get some very good sounds (imho), but I'm at a loss when it comes to 2 guitars.

The biggest issue I'm facing is mono vs. stereo. I always record my guitar in stereo, but would I want to do that if I have 2?

I currently am using a pair of modded 603S. If I should go mono, should I go with an LDC instead? Should I record both guitars in stereo, then criss cross them with hard panning?

How would you guys go about doing it? This is for soft indie rock by the way.

I'm also considering stepping up to either a pair of MK-012s, a pair of SM81s, or a single AT4050

If you are getting a good sound by recording a guitar in stereo, you might as well continue with your good fortune.

However, if you hard pan, you will lose half the stereo for each guitar, which kind of defeats the purpose, and you may as well record in mono. You coud continue using two mikes on the guitar, but just mix them together as a mono track.

But . . . I (personally) wouldn't hard pan. I an not a fan of hard-panning at the best of times. I would be more inclined to record each guitar in stereo, then pan each a little bit left and right, so that you get the benefit of the richness of the stereo recording.

I like to use the extreme left and right as space for reverb . . . as a way of developing the 'stage' in which the performers are located.

[Rexinator]

The biggest issue I'm facing is mono vs. stereo. I always record my guitar in stereo, but would I want to do that if I have 2?
I'm sure there are other verterans on this site more expert than me (I just joined), but if you have 2 acoustic guitar parts, I'm assuming that the 2 parts are not both the same (e.g., one strumming or finger-picking, and the other picking out a lead part, or trading off on these roles). I'm also assuming that you are recording one stereo track for each guitar. If you are actually recording two tracks simultaneously (with the Duet), then my comments apply to both of those tracks for each guitar part. With two guitar parts, you will probably want to create space for each of these in the mix. If you record each guitar performance as two tracks and pan one of each of the tracks hard right and left, you'll wind up two phat performances in the middle (no separation). Even though you'll lose some phat, I think you have take the hit on that and pan the two guitars in opposite directions. This is not a hard pan (e.g., the stereo or mono track for Guitar 1 moderately right, and stereo/mono track for Guitar 2 moderately left). Or, you could place one in the middle (the one that most needs to be phat) and shift the other right or left. Of course, adding a little reverb to the lead guitar shifts that slightly backwards in the mix and further separates the two parts. If the two guitarists are trading lead places, you could consider subtlely shifting the panning as each lead part approaches during your mixdown. You just have to play with this until you strike a balance between separation and phatness that sounds best to you, but I don't see any way to avoid some panning.

[Guitarer]

Originally Posted by gecko zzed

If you are getting a good sound by recording a guitar in stereo, you might as well continue with your good fortune.

You make a very good point.

However, if you hard pan, you will lose half the stereo for each guitar, which kind of defeats the purpose, and you may as well record in mono. You coud continue using two mikes on the guitar, but just mix them together as a mono track.

I don't understand what you mean. When I say hard pan, I mean putting one track (say mic at the nut) all the way left and the other track (mic at 12th fret) all the way right. Not both to the same side.

[gecko zzed]

Originally Posted by Guitarer

You make a very good point.



I don't understand what you mean. When I say hard pan, I mean putting one track (say mic at the nut) all the way left and the other track (mic at 12th fret) all the way right. Not both to the same side.

We need to distinguish between recording and playback.

When you record, yes, do as you say for each guitar, and record each guitar in stereo.

When you've done this, you will have two stereo guitar tracks, with a very wide, but almost identical, image for each. If you play these back together, you will not get a lot of separation between the two guitar tracks because they will sit right on top of each other.

To separate them on playback, you can pan one guitar slightly left, the other slightly right so that you can distinguish between them more easily.

However, if you pan to extremes (e.g. one guitar hard left, the other hard right), you lose the stereo picture for each that you've so carefully recorded.

Is that a bit clearer?

[snellular5]

Whenever my friend and I do acoustic duets we always just use one ldc per guitar and pan my guitar left 50 and his right 50 always works for us.

[Guitarer]

Originally Posted by gecko zzed

We need to distinguish between recording and playback.

When you record, yes, do as you say for each guitar, and record each guitar in stereo.

When you've done this, you will have two stereo guitar tracks, with a very wide, but almost identical, image for each. If you play these back together, you will not get a lot of separation between the two guitar tracks because they will sit right on top of each other.

To separate them on playback, you can pan one guitar slightly left, the other slightly right so that you can distinguish between them more easily.

However, if you pan to extremes (e.g. one guitar hard left, the other hard right), you lose the stereo picture for each that you've so carefully recorded.

Is that a bit clearer?

To be honest, not really...But I will take your word for it

Now, my question is, with 2 guitars, what if I were to keep one on the left side of my image, and one on the right, but keeping both in stereo, with one mic being a tad wider than the other. For instance, something like this:

Guitar1Nut: -48
Guitar1Fret: -25
Guitar2Nut: -48
Guitar2Fret: -25

[tvolhein]

Originally Posted by Guitarer

Which is why I ask the question in the first place. I don't necessarily want a dense mix. I want what sounds good. I want to know if I'd be better off recording in mono with an LDC since I'd be creating a stereo image by having 2 guitars. I would love to experiment, but I don't own an LDC.

For my stuff, once there is more that one instrument (guitars in your case) on which I want to focus, I don't record a stereo track.

I set up two mics on the acoustic guitar(s). One at the 12th fret or where the neck meets the body, and one at the lower bout, pointed at the bridge. I am not saying that you should do this. You may have other mic positions that work for you. My point is only that I get away from a stereo image on the tracking end. What I am after is a good acoustic sound that I can place in a more complex/dense stereo image that I create later when I mix.

My two guitar tracks for each guitar get summed to a buss (one for each guitar). Once I have each buss/guitar producing the sound I want, I use the buss for all fx and panning.

I track each instrument separately, same with all other instruments. Some artists won't do it this way, they "must" track live. I deal with that the best I can, using the same mic set up I just described.

Hope this helps.

t

[tvolhein]

Originally Posted by Guitarer

To be honest, not really...But I will take your word for it

Now, my question is, with 2 guitars, what if I were to keep one on the left side of my image, and one on the right, but keeping both in stereo, with one mic being a tad wider than the other. For instance, something like this:

Guitar1Nut: -48
Guitar1Fret: -25
Guitar2Nut: -48
Guitar2Fret: -25

This may me nit picking, but this isn't recording in stereo. This is four mono tracks for two guitars. If I am reading you right, this the way I track. But I no longer try to pan "stereo" images left and right. By the time the ear deals with the delays between the panned "stereo" images, and reverb is added to the guitar tracks, the result is awash in delays and the guitars lose their up-front position in the mix. Just my opinion.

I don't know what you mean by "one mic being a tad wider than the other." Are you talking about small and large diaphragm mics?

And for me, the gain on each mic during tracking and the gain on the fader during mixing determines the tone that I want to get from the guitar, not the guitar's place in the mix. That's why I don't do true stereo tracking when there are multiple instruments. I want to control the sound of the instrument first, place it in the mix later.

t

[Guitarer]

Originally Posted by tvolhein

This may me nit picking, but this isn't recording in stereo. This is four mono tracks for two guitars. If I am reading you right, this the way I track. But I no longer try to pan "stereo" images left and right. By the time the ear deals with the delays between the panned "stereo" images, and reverb is added to the guitar tracks, the result is awash in delays and the guitars lose their up-front position in the mix. Just my opinion.

I don't know what you mean by "one mic being a tad wider than the other." Are you talking about small and large diaphragm mics?

And for me, the gain on each mic during tracking and the gain on the fader during mixing determines the tone that I want to get from the guitar, not the guitar's place in the mix. That's why I don't do true stereo tracking when there are multiple instruments. I want to control the sound of the instrument first, place it in the mix later.

t

When I say "wider" I'm referring to the amount of panning.

So, you then, would recommend micing each guitar with 2 SDCs?