Uh oh: BASF 526

[lo.fi.love]

I just bought a case of 10 BASF 526 1/4" pancakes from eBay. I bought the tape under the assumption that it was similar enough to Ampex/Quantegy 456 / RMGI SM911.

I may have made a mistake here... I had intended to use this tape on either my 34b for multitracking or on my Otari MX-5050 MKIII-2 for mastering/mixdown. I read this post, which suggests that BASF 526 isn't suited for multitrack recording. Is this true? I may have hurt myself by not doing my research before buying.

And, the ebay seller is TapeAndTape. I read in the above-mentioned thread that the guy was kind of dishonest (or misled)... since I'm buying fresh pancakes, I can't see how I could go wrong as far as quality/tape virginity is concerned.

Ok guys, did I screw up??

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by lo.fi.love

I just bought a case of 10 BASF 526 1/4" pancakes from eBay. I bought the tape under the assumption that it was similar enough to Ampex/Quantegy 456 / RMGI SM911.

Ok guys, did I screw up??

Quite possibly but you won't know until you actually get the tape. Bottom line is NOS tape is not worth buying for anything more than the value of the empty reel/box combination. At least they can be used at some point should the tape prove to be bad.

[lo.fi.love]

Originally Posted by RRuskin

Quite possibly but you won't know until you actually get the tape. Bottom line is NOS tape is not worth buying for anything more than the value of the empty reel/box combination. At least they can be used at some point should the tape prove to be bad.

If it turns out that the tape is OK, then which application should it be used for? Mix-down and mastering? Will this tape cause excessive wear on tape heads if used for multitrack recording?

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by lo.fi.love

If it turns out that the tape is OK, then which application should it be used for? Mix-down and mastering? Will this tape cause excessive wear on tape heads if used for multitrack recording?

This has been debated quite a bit here lately. Personally, I wouldn't be concerned about excessive head wear. If you are though, use it to mix and archive.

If it has sticky-shed or any other problems, throw it away.

[lo.fi.love]

Originally Posted by RRuskin

If it has sticky-shed or any other problems, throw it away.

I thought that BASF tape was mostly safe from sticky shed. Do you know anything more about this?

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by lo.fi.love

I thought that BASF tape was mostly safe from sticky shed. Do you know anything more about this?

I do a lot of analog restoration, recovery and transfer work and have dealt with sticky-shed on BASF, 3M, and Ampex/Quantegy tapes. I have a few NOS reels of EMTEC that are starting to go funky now.

[lo.fi.love]

Originally Posted by RRuskin

I do a lot of analog restoration, recovery and transfer work and have dealt with the sticky-shed on BASF, 3M, and Ampex/Quantegy tapes. I have a few NOS reels of EMTEC that are starting to go funky now.

Ouch. Thanks for the heads-up. I really hope I didn't just waste $210.00.

I just wish that I could find a cheaper way of getting 10.5" reels of 1/4" tape. 2500' quarter-inch RMGI SM911 is pretty expensive - I can't afford to lay out $450+ for 10 reels of tape. Is there just no safe way of getting around this?

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by lo.fi.love

Ouch. Thanks for the heads-up. I really hope I didn't just waste $210.00.

I just wish that I could find a cheaper way of getting 10.5" reels of 1/4" tape. 2500' quarter-inch RMGI SM911 is pretty expensive - I can't afford to lay out $450+ for 10 reels of tape. Is there just no safe way of getting around this?

Do you have to purchase by the case? MY local dealer will sell any amount.

http://www.protapenw.com/acatalog/RMGI_SM900.html
http://www.protapenw.com/acatalog/RMGI_SM911.html

[cjacek]

While I don't advise buying from tapeandtape, I think that you've done real good, that is if you get what you paid for. The 526 indeed is closer to 911 / 456 that you could use it as a drop in replacement. The 526 was used in mastering houses and is designed to be especially strong, good enough for thousands of passes. While I don't have first hand experience, the word is that it's real good tape and if it was sealed / unused then it's good as new. BASF is generally free and clear of sticky shed issues.

[lo.fi.love]

Originally Posted by RRuskin

Do you have to purchase by the case? MY local dealer will sell any amount.

http://www.protapenw.com/acatalog/RMGI_SM900.html
http://www.protapenw.com/acatalog/RMGI_SM911.html

My local dealer will also sell any amount, but they charge above MSRP, so I avoid them unless I need to have tape "today".

I have a backlog of stuff to mix down, and I like to have a few extra reels on hand in case I get a last-minute invitation to do a live recording.

[lo.fi.love]

Originally Posted by cjacek

While I don't advise buying from tapeandtape, I think that you've done real good, that is if you get what you paid for. The 526 indeed is closer to 911 / 456 that you could use it as a drop in replacement. The 526 was used in mastering houses and is designed to be especially strong, good enough for thousands of passes. While I don't have first hand experience, the word is that it's real good tape and if it was sealed / unused then it's good as new. BASF is generally free and clear of sticky shed issues.

I understand, from reading the auction description, that this is fresh, brand-new, unmolested tape. I'll report back when I receive the shipment.

Although, it's rather odd that the picture doesn't show the actual items being sold. Notice the two boxes - one says SM911 and the other says LM526, both say 1/2". I've seen a case of pancakes and they weren't in individual boxes. Also, I don't understand how one could safely ship individual pancakes. I didn't buy a case - I bought ten items. There were only 10 available, but it's clear that tapeandtape meant to resell these singly.

I'm a little nervous. I'll just have to wait and see how this one goes.

[cjacek]

If you paid via PayPal then you are protected should anything happen like getting less than described or no tapes at all. You did pay via PP, right?

[lo.fi.love]

Originally Posted by cjacek

If you paid via PayPal then you are protected should anything happen like getting less than described or no tapes at all. You did pay via PP, right?

Yes, I paid with PayPal. Thanks for reminding me.

[Beck]

1. Buying any tape from Tapetape is high risk. Don't pay any attention to Bill (owner of Tapetape) when he compares one tape type to another... he has no idea what he's talking about and makes stuff up.

2. LM526 is loop-bin mastering tape and is harder on heads over time. However it is pretty indestructible. I wouldn't use it for multitracking though.

3. There is nothing wrong with NOS tape if it is sealed and you know how to avoid the sticky-shed tapes. Tape doesn't go bad if stored properly.

4. None of the common BASF/EMTEC tapes like 468, 911 and 900 have classic sticky-shed. Excessive oxide shedding or the sort of shedding people have experienced with some RMGI tape is not sticky-shed.

You might be ok in this case if the tape actually arrives.

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by Beck

3. There is nothing wrong with NOS tape if it is sealed and you know how to avoid the sticky-shed tapes. Tape doesn't go bad if stored properly.

4. None of the common BASF/EMTEC tapes like 468, 911 and 900 have classic sticky-shed. Excessive oxide shedding or the sort of shedding people have experienced with some RMGI tape is not sticky-shed.

Incorrect. I have seen sealed NOS tape with sticky shed problems. One reel was less than a year old. 3M, BASF/Emtec and Quantegy products all suffered from sticky shed at some point in their production history. As I recall, 3M developed the baking method to temporarily restore afflicted tapes to playability.

[lo.fi.love]

I just received the shipment. I'm actually surprised at the quick turnaround. I'll try out a tape this weekend and write more about how it works out.

[Beck]

Originally Posted by RRuskin

Incorrect. I have seen sealed NOS tape with sticky shed problems. One reel was less than a year old. 3M, BASF/Emtec and Quantegy products all suffered from sticky shed at some point in their production history. As I recall, 3M developed the baking method to temporarily restore afflicted tapes to playability.

Looks like we are talking past each other, Rick. I am hardly unfamiliar with Sticky-shed.

You quoted part of my post, but appear to have missed the meaning.

I said, "3. There is nothing wrong with NOS tape if it is sealed and you know how to avoid the sticky-shed tapes. Tape doesn't go bad if stored properly."

The key is to know how to avoid Sticky-shed tapes in the first place. If a tape has a stable binder, such as is the case with AMPEX 456 made 1995 and later, it will not "go bad" in storage. My NOS 456 from 1995 is functionally as new as my 456 from 2004.

I did not say just any NOS (New-old-stock) tape won't have sticky-shed. In fact I was probably the first person ever to warn people on this forum and other forums that a tape from the sticky-shed years will be sticky even in an unopened box.

Sticky-shed is a urethane binder problem. 3M and AMPEX used the same defective binder. Thus many 3M backcoated tapes, such as 250, 226, 227, 808 and others had Sticky-shed. 226 was replaced by 966/986 with a new binder for this very reason. AGFA 469 also had sticky-shed because in their attempt to make a 456 equivalent they used the same defective binder as 3M and AMPEX.

There have never been any BASF/EMTEC 468, 911 or 900 with sticky-shed whatsoever. Sticky-shed is a specific affliction. The shedding of some runs of RMGI tape is not Sticky-shed either. The mistake some people make is throwing Sticky-shed syndrome (SSS) and any other sort of oxide shedding into the same basket. This causes much confusion for the uninitiated.

The devil is in the details... and I'm one of the few people that know those details.

See my Sticky-Shed Help Thread right at the top of this forum, and List of Bad Tapes on eBay Thread for details on what is, what's not, why, when, where, etc.

http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=228067

http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=228066
Post #8 is where I first began listing the types so people could still glean useful info even after the eBay item was no longer viewable.

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by Beck

Looks like we are talking past each other, Rick. I am hardly unfamiliar with Sticky-shed.

You quoted part of my post, but appear to have missed the meaning.

I said, "3. There is nothing wrong with NOS tape if it is sealed and you know how to avoid the sticky-shed tapes. Tape doesn't go bad if stored properly."

The key is to know how to avoid Sticky-shed tapes in the first place. If a tape has a stable binder, such as is the case with AMPEX 456 made 1995 and later, it will not "go bad" in storage. My NOS 456 from 1995 is functionally as new as my 456 from 2004.

I did not say just any NOS (New-old-stock) tape won't have sticky-shed. In fact I was probably the first person ever to warn people on this forum and other forums that a tape from the sticky-shed years will be sticky even in an unopened box.

Sticky-shed is a urethane binder problem. 3M and AMPEX used the same defective binder. Thus many 3M backcoated tapes, such as 250, 226, 227, 808 and others had Sticky-shed. 226 was replaced by 966/986 with a new binder for this very reason. AGFA 469 also had sticky-shed because in their attempt to make a 456 equivalent they used the same defective binder as 3M and AMPEX.

There have never been any BASF/EMTEC 468, 911 or 900 with sticky-shed whatsoever. Sticky-shed is a specific affliction. The shedding of some runs of RMGI tape is not Sticky-shed either. The mistake some people make is throwing Sticky-shed syndrome (SSS) and any other sort of oxide shedding into the same basket. This causes much confusion for the uninitiated.

The devil is in the details... and I'm one of the few people that know those details.

See my Sticky-Shed Help Thread right at the top of this forum, and List of Bad Tapes on eBay Thread for details on what is, what's not, why, when, where, etc.

http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=228067

http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=228066
Post #8 is where I first began listing the types so people could still glean useful info even after the eBay item was no longer viewable.

Chalk it up to different experiences. I've taken NOS 996 out of the box and had it stick in the tape path. So if it wasn't sticky-shed, it was sticky-something else. Whatever it was, the tape was deemed useless because I won't record on anything my machines won't pull.
I've also had similar experiences with BASF and EMTEC stock.

[Beck]

Originally Posted by RRuskin

Chalk it up to different experiences. I've taken NOS 996 out of the box and had it stick in the tape path. So if it wasn't sticky-shed, it was sticky-something else. Whatever it was, the tape was deemed useless because I won't record on anything my machines won't pull.
I've also had similar experiences with BASF and EMTEC stock.

And that goes back to what I said about every tape company having bad batches on occasion. That's always been the case.

The importance of knowing whether it's a binder problem (SSS) or not is that it will help you determine how to proceed. Baking would do nothing for BASF/EMTEC if it were shedding heavier than normal oxide because it's not sticky-shed. Same with Ampex/Quantegy 499, which I've seen leave a lot of oxide behind.

Some brands/models that are just leaving too much oxide behind will benefit from an alcohol bath (holding an alcohol dampened cloth against the oxide while playing it through). This can permanently cure some shedding tape.

So knowing what condition you’re dealing with can make all the difference.

Of course some batches are irrecoverable and if you can, should be sent back for replacement, as is the case with some of the RMGI issues.

Hope that clears things up a little as to where I’m coming from.

[sweetbeats]

Some brands/models that are just leaving too much oxide behind will benefit from an alcohol bath (holding an alcohol dampened cloth against the oxide while playing it through). This can permanently cure some shedding tape.

No kiddin'! Hadn't heard that one before. It sounds crazy, and yet strangely neat-o...so is that something that would have a positive effect on recent shedding batches of RMGI, or is it a fix related to older generations of tape? I realize that for the RMGI tape, you should work with them to get it replaced, but just from a theory standpoint...would that work? Does it, like, reactivate the binder or something (the alcohol)?

[Beck]

Originally Posted by sweetbeats

No kiddin'! Hadn't heard that one before. It sounds crazy, and yet strangely neat-o...so is that something that would have a positive effect on recent shedding batches of RMGI, or is it a fix related to older generations of tape? I realize that for the RMGI tape, you should work with them to get it replaced, but just from a theory standpoint...would that work? Does it, like, reactivate the binder or something (the alcohol)?

No worky for RMGI, but it works on Quantegy 499 and AGFA 468. With some batches of AGFA you can use a dry lint-free cloth to remove the loose oxide dust. With some tapes that's all it is, just heavier than normal oxide shedding. It's not a binder issue in these cases.