Practical Help For Dissertation?

[thethirdman111]

Hi

Im currently doing a report on 'the practicality of analogue recording and techniques in todays digital age', and so far have tracked two songs of a a friends band, live onto a Fostex E16 1/2 inch 16 track reel to reel recorder.

Absolutely no digital equipment can be used and this also includes the mastering process which will see the two recordings pressed onto 12" vinyl to hand in to the dissertation marker.

Hang i'll get to the point!....

So the next stage will see me having to run some tracks through a stairwell at my university for the natural reverb which i will then mix into the original dry tracks.

When i come to mix the tracks from the 16 track recorder to a fostex M80 1/4 8 track recorder, are there any basic techniques i should use/and any problems to be aware of?

Tips etc.

Would be a great to hear from anyone who has some good experience of the mix down process.........

thanks

Rob

[sweetbeats]

Cool report!

So, wait...You're "mixing down" from the 1/2" 16-track to the 1/4" 8-track? If I'm understanding correctly, why are you soing that?

[thethirdman111]

thanks for the reply.

I understand what your saying!

Im mixing down onto an 8 track as i do not have access to a stereo 2 track recorder.

have to make do im afraid!

Will this make a big difference?

[A Reel Person]

Your basic premise if fine, if not "retro", and it's only somewhat amusing that analog recording would be fodder for college dissertations.

You had me when you said tracking a band to tape on the E16.

You lost me a little when you said you'd use stairwell reverb, but that's admirable you'd even have that idea. However, there are analog electronic reverb units you could use that are not digital,... if u wanted to go that way.

You lost me entirely when mentioning mixdown to a Model 80, 8-track 1/4" tape recorder. This would not be appropriate, at all, though it's do-able. Mixing down to 4-tracks-and-4-tracks in "stereo" (pairs) onto an 8-track machine is not the same as recording to a 2-track/stereo 1/4" machine. The fidelity will not be the same. If possible, I'd recommend using a Model 20, A2 (Fostex), a 22-2 or 32 (Tascam),... half-track mastering recorder for final mixdown.

Anyway, nothing I say on this board or elsewhere is gospel. Just some tips.

Best of luck!

Thanx!

[Herm]

I would find a cassette deck to mix to.

[A Reel Person]

You just use what you have, and that's fine.

You got your reply in just before mine!

It's cool what you're doing, man. Party on!

Maybe you'll be the catalyst that makes analog "cool" again with the kids.

Computers are so passe' these days! Point/point, click/click! That's no way to make an album!

[rickb]

A Tascam 22-2 is a sweet 1/2 track mixdown deck. They can be had off evilbay for around $100. Running some Maxell 35-90 at 15ips w/o any NR proves pretty good to me. Might work for you? Basic reverb units are pretty cheap as well, even an old Yamaha R-100 single chanell does a decent job. Best of luck.

[cjacek]

While a half track is standard, even a consumer 1/4" 4 track would be better to mixdown to than a 1/4" 8 track. You're gonna end up with a poor copy of the original and it won't serve your report nor subject too well.

1/2" 16 track is really pushing the limits of the format and, on top of that, when you dub to a 1/4" 8 track, it's not gonna be good.

[Talldog]

If you mix down to an 8 track it will make mastering anywhere else hard. How were you planning to master?

[famous beagle]

Originally Posted by Talldog

If you mix down to an 8 track it will make mastering anywhere else hard. How were you planning to master?

That, Talldog, is an excellent point.

[themaddog]

You're going to have to do a little research ahead of time about where your record is being pressed. You have to ask what formats they will accept. Believe it or not, not all record manufacturers accept reel tape.

If you're in a "reel" pinch you could mix down to VHS tape, but I think your best bet is to get one or two 1/4" 2 tracks. The reason I would suggest getting two is because after mixing your 16 track down to a 2 track mix, you still may have to treat the audio with additional compression, record the songs closer together (less breaktime between songs), or even change the order of the songs on the reels that you mixed. Otherwise, you're going to have to record each mix perfectly, one take at a time (if it's a bad take, re-record it, but without being able to hear it against other takes), and hope everything lines up perfectly!

Also, if you've found a record plant that lets you press just a few 12" albums, please let us know where it is!

Are you allowed to use digital counters and digital controllers, for memory points and punch-ins? Otherwise, that might make things more difficult, and you'd have to find even older tape machines!

I've done the natural-reverb thing. Using reverb from even a carpeted room or a bathroom while mic'ing the walls can yield some neat effects.

Good luck to you!
-MD

[thethirdman111]

thanks for all of you that replied.

I am not allowed to use any digital equipment so the reverb will have to be natural as i do not have access to a plate or spring reverb unit.

Im planning to bounce the 16 tracks from the 1/2 inch machine down to 8 tracks on the 1/4 inch 8 track machine and then bounce them back down to 2 tracks on the 16 track 1/2 machine.

I have found a business that masters 1/2 tape to acetate dub plates. Pretty reasonable prices too.

http://www.vinylcarvers.com/

Rob

[famous beagle]

Originally Posted by thethirdman111

Im planning to bounce the 16 tracks from the 1/2 inch machine down to 8 tracks on the 1/4 inch 8 track machine and then bounce them back down to 2 tracks on the 16 track 1/2 machine.

I have found a business that masters 1/2 tape to acetate dub plates. Pretty reasonable prices too.

http://www.vinylcarvers.com/

Rob

I don't this this will work. I'm pretty sure the mastering company is going to be looking for a 1/2" tape with a full stereo mix on it, using the whole tape (the left audio on one half of the tape and the right audio on the other half of the tape). You're only going to be using 1/8" of the tape for your two tracks.

Unless you've specifically talked to this guy about your plan (maybe you have), I think there's probably a misunderstanding.

[themaddog]

This business looks really cool. I have to agree with Famous Beagle though, I doubt they'll be able to take your 2 tracks from your 16 track Fostex.

I didn't see anywhere on this website that says that the company will master from reel tape, although they will accept cassette. Did you speak with them directly? For your purposes, you'll want to make absolutely sure that their mastering process doesn't involve the use of any digital equipment.

-MD

[Talldog]

+1 to both of the dogs (famous and mad) on the 16 track thing. Any mastering place is going to be using a two track. Hey, I'm a dog too! This post makes it a doggie style hat trick.

[Hi_Flyer]

see if vinyl carvers will take a stereo mix on cassette.

[cjacek]

Originally Posted by thethirdman111

Im planning to bounce the 16 tracks from the 1/2 inch machine down to 8 tracks on the 1/4 inch 8 track machine and then bounce them back down to 2 tracks on the 16 track 1/2 machine.

I have found a business that masters 1/2 tape to acetate dub plates. Pretty reasonable prices too.

Most likely they are talking about 1/2" 2 track [half track] and mastering houses usually take that or 1/4" 2 track but not what you want to do, which is really a bad idea not only from a quality of sound issue but also that they won't be able to use what you are offering. If you don't want to buy a half track deck then ask around if someone can rent you one or gain access to one. You really do need a half track deck if you wish to bring it in to a mastering house and preserve your sound quality, either a 1/2" or 1/4" half [2 track] track.

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[thethirdman111]

I feel a fool for not realizing this earlier!

ok, so this brings me to my next question.

Can anyone recommend a decent 1/2" 2 track machine?

[A Reel Person]

Fostex Model 20, Fostex A2, Tascam 22-2, Tascam 32.
OOPS, sorry! I didn't catch the drift of your question. These are all 1/4", (which IMO should suffice).

The only 1/2" 2-track I know of is the Fostex E-22, kind of hard to find, tho' there may be more models out there.

I think to get a 1/2" 2-track mastering deck for this project is a BIG committment (if you can find one), maybe overkill. I fail to see how a 1/4" 2-track wouldn't be good enough, (and much easier to find).

[sweetbeats]

I second that...1/4" half-track 2-track format has been used on countless hit recordings. 1/2" half-track 2-track is going to be harder to find and exponentially more expensive when you do.

[A Reel Person]

Despite your original intentions, the more down-the-line you get on this idea, you may just be proving to your audience that analog is:
-too much hassle
-too expensive
-too much maintenance
-not practical
-marginal sound quality,... depending on the mix you ultimately end up with.

And, exactly what is your audience going to do with a vinyl LP? How many people these days even have turntables?

It takes a lot of practical experience to make a really stellar recording on any medium. Even I lost the main point of this dissertation. That you don't "need" digital? That digital isn't "best"? Well, for many people,... they do,... and it is!

I think people record on analog for two reasons:
a) they are old school, having learned or done the bulk of their recording on analog, and they're attached to it by nostalgia, or...
b) for the love of the "art" of recording,... vs. the prefab point/click simulated recording world in-the-box of the 'puter.

Most people these days are infatuated with their 'puters. They take it for granted as a standard household appliance. It turns every desktop into a "studio" and every key operator into a "producer". That's just the post-2K world we live in.

I don't wanna sound harsh. You're heading down an expensive road for limited gains, but I appreciate your original idea. More power to you, dude.

I mean,... it was "cool" when you concieved of this idea all on "borrowed" equipment, but I'd not advise you to hop out on eBay and buy just any machine, for hundreds of dollars and in return getting somewhat unknown maintenance issues set in your lap,... to me it's just not worth it. Now, if you really wanted to set up a cool analog studio, then go for it, but not for a college dissertation to "make a point". Hey, I'm all for analog recording if that's what you really want to do. There's certainly nothing wrong with it, albiet being outdated and out of fashion, but many real people still love analog recording for what it is,... a committment!

Peace out.

[thethirdman111]

I think you have missed the point.

Im not saying digital isn't good. I know many studios still have at least one tape machine in them for tracking drums for example. Im just investigating the practicality of analogue recording and whether there is a future for it. Im aiming to be as neutral as possible in the argument.

My dissertation supervisor is extremely interested in my dissertation and is giving me plenty of encouragement. He is also completely down with the idea of me handed the finished tracks in on vinyl. I posted a thread in hope of getting some help and advise, not to be put down.

Your comment about turntables makes me laugh with disbelief.

Analogue recording has been a passion of mine for a long time and as you can see i have still a great deal to learn. Digital recording just doesn't interest me like analogue does.

In comparison to all the digital recording i have done, the two analogue tracks that have been recorded (that haven't been mixed yet) sound far better already. (Although that might be down to running the tracks through TL Audio Valve Pre amps).

Anyway, thanks for the help...

[sweetbeats]

thirdman

Just don't want to see this go sideways.

A Reel Person makes the best sounding recordings on multitrack analog cassette I have ever heard, or even thought possible, and he has definitely been doing it for a long time, among other things. You'd never know they are cassette 4-track.

His emphatic commentary is to rattle thoughts and to play the antagonist's advocate if you will, not to put you down. Trust me on that. Its sort of a directed out-loud thinking. Made me think...

He fits into both categories A and B (as well as being proficient in digital production) BTW.

Dave, tell me if I'm off-base.

His comments echo likely the thoughts of many here, and I can say for certain mine, and those thoughts come from a standpoint of not knowing your history and experience which you've shared a bit more about in your last post.

Okay...so what's my point...not sure...just don't want to see anybody's feathers getting ruffled, and we don't want to see you or anybody running out and dropping dosh on analog gear because its "the answer" even if for a well-intended dissertation project. y'know? I'm 2 years into my "return to analog apprenticeship" of sorts and I can tell you the rathole goes deep, but its pretty nice down here too.

I think I got thrown when you were talking about using a multi-track deck to mixdown your multitrack project which is akin to mixing down a digital project onto 3.5" floppy in a multi-part .zip file. Did you feel words above were condescending? Than shame on me or anybody if I/we did. Its not at all with this forum community is about, but I for one got thrown.

So look, try again?

Where are you at with the project? What do you need to do next/what's the hurdle and how can we help?

[A Reel Person]

I didn't mean to be a buzkill, and I'm only here to help.

I just wouldn't want to send anyone on a wild goose chase for spending hundreds of dollars, sight unseen. The idea seemed fabulous when it was all borrowed equipment. If you're into analog as much as it seems, more power to you. I'll not argue that in many cases it sounds better, but at what cost?

Simple. Go buy a Tascam 22-2 and master to 1/4" tape. That seems like a slam dunk to me. Good luck.

[cjacek]

Originally Posted by thethirdman111

Can anyone recommend a decent 1/2" 2 track machine?

While, indeed, some mastering houses can take 1/2", it's actually more common to see 1/4", so first ask if they have that capability too.

I personally would set aside any house which doesn't take 1/4" and look for one which handles that format simply as a result of much easier access of the said deck and it being considerably less costly to run. Most records have been mastered to / from 1/4" half track tape.

However you seek it out, whether borrowing one or buying, always heed the advice of buying local, where you can check it out carefully [head-ware, test-tones etc...] and avoid shipping like the plaque.

craigslist.com is a cool place to search out gear and some recorders to keep an eye out for are the Tascam 22-2, 32, 42, 52, some Otari models and, of course, the Fostex.

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