STRUGGLE WITH MELODY !!! grr

[Christopher_xo]

Hey everyone.

I have a huge problrem when it comes to making up melodies !
I think it's just this mental block that I have and I want to get rid of it !!

ANY Tips ???

[mixsit]

Only that it may help to sort of understand 'how it works'..
There is this old thing called Psycho Cybernetics that roughly said; we have two working sides/methods in our creative abilities; One is the conscious where we do the work, struggle with and feed in what we know and can think of, ie defining and making the effort. This feeds in the raw material if you will, then when you put the task away -not being conscious of it -sleep being a prime example, the subconscious does it's miracle creation thing'- The next day, out of nowhere, there is this melody.. (or what ever.
But not so much w/o the work up front.
So theory is- do the work, set it aside, that's about it.
(YMMV, +/- 3db, etc...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psycho-Cybernetics

[Frankie Rage]

If you're really stuck (and as an exercise) "steal" other peoples melodies.

Take an existing melody written by someone else and start changing individual notes until you have something "new".

I put "steal" and "new" in inverted commas because it's not really stealing, nor will what you create be anything new, as it's all been done before anyway...

Fx

[stringtheory]

Originally Posted by Frankie Rage

If you're really stuck (and as an exercise) "steal" other peoples melodies.

Take an existing melody written by someone else and start changing individual notes until you have something "new".

I put "steal" and "new" in inverted commas because it's not really stealing, nor will what you create be anything new, as it's all been done before anyway...

Fx

^ i agree! if you're stuck listen to a song that you really like and try and work off of it. it's really helps and since the music you are trying to put lyrics to is different the vocals will turn out to be entirely your own.

[Christopher_xo]

that's pretty good advice guys ! thanks !

[dementedchord]

imo... the steal and vary idea is idiocy of the highest order... great if ya wanna become that which you stole... try writing your melodies first... away from your primary axe... so the melody isn't stifeled by your technique or lack of...

[Frankie Rage]

Originally Posted by dementedchord

imo... the steal and vary idea is idiocy of the highest order... ...

oh well, ...

Originally Posted by dementedchord

... try writing your melodies first... away from your primary axe... so the melody isn't stifeled by your technique or lack of...

Good advice. I write my melodies acapella. If it doesn't stand up on it's own then I don't bother with it.

[dementedchord]

dont worry about it... the theme on a stolen melody is an old idea... just not advantageous if originality and personal style are a concern for you...

[Frankie Rage]

Originally Posted by dementedchord

dont worry about it... the theme on a stolen melody is an old idea... just not advantageous if originality and personal style are a concern for you...

I'm not worried. Despite your rude response to my suggestion I still say it's an exercise which may be useful to the guy.

As for originality, some peeps never have any.. and personal style; everyone has something to offer!

[gtarman59]

The Beatles rewrote other peoples songs. Those hacks! What do they know about songwriting?!

[SEDstar]

my thoughts, in random order...

1) if you are going to "crib" a chord prog, or a melody snippet idea? Crib frm the MASTERS, baby... I mean, if your gonna steal something, steal classical!! WHy? one, its GREAT STUFF.... two, *its legal*

2) take a chord prog frmo a GREAT song (or classical section...) and write your own melody within that; early on, its great to get some structure until your comfortable with your own.

3) try making a melody with a different instrument that you are used to. MANY great songs, from classical to hard rock, were the melody and chord prog ideas worked out on PIANO first, before they went to the final instrument(s). Piano is a "melody monster". DO you normally work out melodies on guitar? Use a cheap computr piano... its a different "animal", and might occasionally take you in a new direction. Once you find a melody/chord prog idea that shows promise doodling on a computer program? THEN go to your main instrument like guitar and take it from there...

4) establish key. if your first note is C, work in the scale, then END on C... if you always work in one scale (a lot of guitar melody writers always seem to work in Blues or Pent Min...) try using another scale, if even on a computer program.

5) once you do #4, cut and paste it thru I,IV,V to quickly see if its "working"... you can ALWAYS go later to a totally diff chord prog with a few cut and pastes...

6) I dont like to "start" with an established song, and just "stir the soup" until it makes something "technically new"... some of my best ideas have come like this...

I have a song I consider awesome in my head. I have HEARD it a million times, but not in the last couple years... great... I do NOT play the song.... working just from my MEMORY, I ATTEMPT to re-create the melody on the computer... 99 out of a 100 times, I completely FAIL at this, yet somehow always 9 times out of ten, I come up with SOMEthing new this way... and no one yet has ever "picked out" the song I started with.

I dont have pitch ears; I dont know the original scale; I cant hear the chord progs... so, its pretty "safe" for me, LMAO


I find the computer GREAT because I can take a completely new scale I have NEVER worked in, and start "noodling" in it... working on guitar, your fingers will tend to work in your "familiar" scales you are used to playing, and hearing... which is usually drop D, blues, or pent Min...

Personally, I find it a "little harsh" to call "moving an original song around" to try to get something for yourself out of it... a bad thing...

especially if your starting out, its a great way to train your ears and impose "established structure" until you get used to it, and I think of my early stuff where I did that kinda like "training wheels". The training wheels come off one day, they always do... we all started with them...

I mean, beginning writers "imitate" a famous writers style, until they find their own "style".

I mean, beginning comedians first tell OTHER peoples famous jokes and imitate their routines... then they write new jokes, but in the style of their hero comedian... eventually, they develop their own style.

and, if you REALLY want somethign completely off the wall? for melody writing? You might have been writing in "homophony" all these years... look up "counterpoint" on Wiki... (wink!) counterpoint has been known to be the "oh!... THATS what I have been trying to do... heh heh" for some people...

a "straght melody" line can be really direct and cool... counterpoint has certain advantages (and disadvantages...)...

I am recently learning how to use a balance of the two, and things seem to be getting better....

A further word on "cribbing" or "stealing"... Beatles were WELL known to for instance take a classical chord prog, run it backwards from its opriginal order... and call it their own "genius work"

Michelle Branch was "caught" cribbing melody snippets from "the masters", and she laughed and owned up to it...

LOTS of very famous musicians have done it, and will continue to do so... my "armchair" theory is if you DO wanna steal a famous chord prog, use it with yer own melody... if you DO wanna crib a tiny bit of a famous melody, make it a small section of an "obscure" piece, and fashion the REST of the melody yourself, and then pick your OWN chord prog, then write hooks, riffs, and solo's all original based on that...

I'm "100% original" now for at least 2 years... but stuff like that gave me my start (not that I'm anything yet, trust me, LMAO)


BUT... if you ARE going to crib "anything"... aim high! why steal solid gold, when you can steal the crown jewels and platinum? (in other words, steal classical bits... 'cos then they say "inspired by..." instead of "you stole the melody from...", LMAO)

PS - dementedchord? I like your critiques, you seem rather accomplished and authoritative based on your writing about stuff... I think myself, and perhaps this guy here, could benefit from you posting some totally original stuff, that we might learn from it.

Gecko zzed graciously let me hear his original stuff, I loved it, and kind of studied it... I would like to study your stuff as well. I personally would like to benefit from hearing development in an all original classical piece properly done, as i freely admit I am lacking in that area... this guy would prolly like to hear some more modern pop/rock kind of thing. hey, we're the students man... we gotta hear how its done properly... Up until now, Geck is the only classical stuff I ever heard put up on here, I could USE someone else's original stuff as a guide, eh? 2 teachers are better than one, for me, anyways... this cat has some kinks vocals thing going on, h would prolly like some more "american roots of rock" kind of thing...

[Monkey Allen]

Originally Posted by dementedchord

imo... the steal and vary idea is idiocy of the highest order... great if ya wanna become that which you stole...

Blowin' In the Wind...etc etc...stolen melody/ inspiration from other things/ very similar to....etc....the blues tradition....you're way way off dementedchord. You don't know what you're talking about old son.

[dementedchord]

"imo... the steal and vary idea is idiocy of the highest order... "


ok so that was a bit harsh perhaps... but i think the idea still holds true for the most part... it seems to me that all the great themes haven't been written yet... all the notes have not been used... (on a psyco-acoustic level)... my primary thoughts were really geared towrds making others think... and that's accomplished so...

[gtarman59]

Originally Posted by SEDstar

I'm "100% original" now for at least 2 years...

NOBODY is 100% original--NOBODY.

[dogonjon]

Motive, inversion, interval change, retrograde . Motive= short phrase, one bar long or less. Inversion= motive inverted. Interval change= motive with one note altered. Retrograde= motive played backwards. Classical music is built on these conventions i.e., Beethoven's Fifth symphony and Moonlight Sonata. Jazz players use these same conventions to build improvised solos. Dedicate some time each day to experimenting, noodling, dallying, screwing around, goofing off, otherwise improvising off the top of your head. You will soon build a repertoire of licks to weave into melodies and solos.

[Frankie Rage]

I was taught some of the basics of musical theory as a kid when I was learning my first instrument.

I think it pays to remember that the rules were written for the consideration of wise men...

In theory, if you are unhappy then to show that you should have a long face or be crying, but that's not always the case is it..

Learn the rules by all means, how can that be a bad thing, but they can be broken. Use your ears. Does it sound good/right to you? If it does, it is.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by dementedchord

idiocy of the highest order

Ironically, I'm stealing THAT LINE for my next CD title.

[SEDstar]

Gtarman59 QUOTE:"NOBODY is 100% original--NOBODY"

Okay, but what I meant was that for the last 2 years, I am sitting down...

making a melody idea, and not using someone elses "magic chord prog", and just making up melodies on my own, and then just building and workjing around it...

meaning, I was not trying to use someone else's "great song framework"

eh, you know what I mean... lol

no... using a 145 chord prog is anythign BUT original, and heck, at that point, why do we use scales? (harmonic theory, lol)

I just mean, I listn to the radio, and I hear a lot of stuff that a LOT of it sounds alike, when you hit a point like that, "originality" or whatever "passes for it" is thrown out the window... heck, would be nice to hear a singer that doesnt sound like 10 other singers, yuo know? lol...

When I was younger, I heard a lot of "good" music, that seemed complex. I learned those pople had classical training. SO... I decided I had to learn at least a LITTLE bit of classical composition before I tried anythign else.

A lot of the "genre" material is really becoming "a formula" I think.

you got your creed singers... yu got your "green day bands"... Heck, even the minimalist acoustic guitar and soulful ballad is a lot of times becoming so commonplace its almost contrived... the whole "rap over heavy metal rhythm guitar" thing is done to death now...

*urp*

I cant be the only one that wants to hear som classic ELO, some old Queen, and classically trained musicians arranging "complex stuff".

I know there's nothing new under the sun, not really... but, this formula-genre stuff is getting beat to death. I wonder how many serious musicians ar being told "aw... get a cute singer and learn to do THIS... THIS sells records... THAT crap is old school high brow stuff that puts listeners off..."

which is a great dis-service. For me, anyways. *shrugs* I LIKE some high brow in my music... maybe "progressive" can make a comeback. WOuld be a refreshign change...

so, if there isnt 100 original possible... we could at least STRIVE to get as close as we can, eh? lol

[dementedchord]

Originally Posted by SEDstar

so, if there isnt 100 original possible... we could at least STRIVE to get as close as we can, eh? lol

well said... move to the head of the class....

[dogonjon]

I didn't mean to get all highbrow with the classical music compositional conventions but it's a good place to start when crafting melodies. The rules aren't just for smart people and they are meant to provide a guide to work from. Really good composers can break all the rules with great results. Just look at Stravinsky's "The Rite of Spring". It caused a riot when it debuted and now it's the convention that modern movie soundtracks are modeled after. Music appreciation and listening classes expose you to a broad range of music. Analysis class shows you that a few basic fundamentals go a long way. Composition class let's you score pieces that can be performed. These building blocks and fundamentals are stepping stones that help develop the skill to compose interesting music.

[Hakea]

Originally Posted by Christopher_xo

Hey everyone.

I have a huge problrem when it comes to making up melodies !
I think it's just this mental block that I have and I want to get rid of it !!

ANY Tips ???

Hi,

Please excuse the long answer...

Firstly, I was amused by dementedchord's response - and it's a fine line for provoking discussion - but I think it's well wide of the mark. Sure, it's kinda lame to simply pinch somebody else's melody holus-bolus, but that's not what it's about. It's really about studying what works and how it works, and then using the info.


I say this on the basis that it’s been an integral part of traditional music studies for centuries to examine the work of previous masters (or even nursery rhymes for that matter) to help understand how and why certain effects can be created and developed. It’s part and parcel of learning your craft. You can learn an enormous amount of useful information about the basic mechanics of writing by looking at how (for instance) various combinations of intervals and rhythms can be used to different effect. It’s an extremely useful exercise to take an existing order of pitches, work out the voodoo of it all, and then see how far away from the original feel you can take them just by altering the timing, touch, tempo etc. Or you can choose to keep the same internal timing logic and make changes to the note order, and thus the structure of intervals. And so on... You can hobble your ‘art’ if you don’t yet have the tools of the ‘craft’ at your disposal.

There are many variations on the theme of learning your basic craft by studying the examples of others, picking them apart to help equip yourself with a kit of tools, and then use them to create something new and personal. For instance, I have no training whatever in building houses but I wanted to fulfill a long-standing dream to design and build my own home. I had the opportunity to help demolish a couple of houses that were built using a similar timber framed construction. I paid close attention whilst I pulled them apart, and learned a huge amount of useful information. Later, I was able to put much of that to use when I did indeed design and build my own house - which conforms to the building code regarding structural requirements, yet is still completely unique, both in its character and execution. I try and do the same with music. Classical composers such as as Mozart and Bach did much the same. These guys were no slouches at coming up with their own melodies, yet were also happy to acknowledge their debt to others, in some cases quite directly. (e.g. Brahms’s “Variations on a Theme of Haydn”).

I’ve seen a somewhat similar idea expressed on music forums - such as versions of “I don’t want to learn music theory because it might stunt my creativity”. Often it seems to be trotted out by beginners who didn’t seem to have much actual creativity (or playing ability yet) to blunt. But they did feel overwhelmed and put off by the apparent demanding precision and general “bossiness” of theory books (which is pretty much an illusion once you start to understand it - I see theory as “Tools not Rules”.)


But back to writing melodies....


As mentioned, I see nothing wrong with taking elements of existing themes, tunes, runs or riffs and using some of the structural strategies to help rebuild something completely different. One way or another you will need to learn something about your craft before you can produce much in the way of art. You can do it by studying theory. You can do it sub-consciously by listening to a lot of music and getting an inbuilt feel for what you think works (even if you don’t know why). You can do it by regular and persistent experimentation. Or you can do it by combining all of those ideas and more (which to varying degrees is what most of us do). But simply waiting for inspirational genius to strike is a known low percentage option.


Here are some other ideas:


1. Noodling. I just love noodling. Pick a bunch of notes and just mess around with them and see what I can create. As others have mentioned, there’s a perceived trap with falling into familiar patterns and not trying new things. This seems to me to be a limitation of the individual player rather than the method, but nevertheless I get the point. If you’re not a very adventurous type then you may well keep falling into ‘safe’ or familiar patterns. The alternative can also be true though - some people find it hard to stick to designated paths and have to struggle NOT to keep wandering off in new directions. Fortunately, I have more than one instrument and swapping from one to the other seems to break any possible patterns just fine. I have acoustic and electric guitars and they require different techniques and make different sounds, all of which can lead me in a variety of directions. I can also swap to piano, arranger keyboard, clarinet, sax or banjo if I want a change of mindset.

2. Generate a random sequence and then edit it. I saw a clip recently of a pianist/composer who had the audience pull discs from a bag, with note names on. He laid them out in the order they were drawn and then played a tune using the result. Some parts worked better than others, but he could have then taken the bits that looked interesting and used them in any way he chose.

3. Lay down a rhythm track first. Obviously, rhythm makes a huge difference to a song, so why not work on that first? I have a drum kit and a drum machine handy, but there are also many ways of creating drums track in software (or even just clapping something out ) so getting a basic groove down first is not much of a technical problem. It won’t restrict what key you play in, although it might suggest a favourite or two, depending on the rhythm. Then take your instrument and play around with your bunch of notes and see what flies.

4. Start with some lyrics. I belong to another forum where they set a weekly songwriting challenge. Most of the lyrics submitted are pretty dire, and one reason is that few of the would-be ‘composers’ have a grasp on how to match the punch and feel of the words to the pulse and drive of any real music. So they often just write bad poetry and think it’s lyrics. Few actually submit any music. So there’s another angle - either write some words, or take a line or two from another source - and try and set them to music. See how successfully you can enhance the impact of the words - in the right place and time - with an appropriate piece of music. Find out what makes it work - how to handle interval jumps and runs up and down, what effect does changing the timing have, etc?? What works cooperatively with the words and what doesn't.

4. Learn more about what makes a good melody. Generally speaking this includes things like creating and releasing tension, movement, and repetition (particularly repetition coupled with variation) and so on. Even if you can't read music you can learn a few lessons just by looking carefully at scores and seeing how the music flows up and down, how the timing changes, how big or small the gaps up and down are, etc. The composer should also have some idea of what the journey is about, where it’s going to take the listener, what moods it’s seeking to create, and what emotional story it’s trying to tell along the way. It's when you sit there with nothing at all in place that it can be hard - no idea of what you're trying to write, no story, time signature, key, rhythm, etc and not much in your kit of tools to tell you how to achieve any effects if they do occur to you. But sometimes that can be exciting too...

Just a few ideas off the top of my head. I’m sure there’s many other approaches, and I’ve doubtless missed some good ones. But I think it still really boils down to putting in the time and learning the craft.

Good luck.

Chris

[Pax Greger]

My meaning is as simple as it could be...

Take your instrument, if it is guitar-keyboard, whatever.
And play around for fun, not to NEED to - have to LIKE to...
And in the same minute you find something that you think is sounding nice, put it into your Cubase, Pro Tools etc...
And then the writing really begin, find drums, bass and so on that fits to this song.

OR - if your in the lyrics mode, start with the theme you want to write about.
And try diff. endings to make it more interesting and not to simple.
Deside if it is a Ballad, Trans, Blues, Heavy, and what you want to come out of this words. What you want people to remember after listen.

// Hope it helps
// Regards to you all taking time to help other -

[dementedchord]

Originally Posted by Hakea

It's really about studying what works and how it works, and then using the info.

I say this on the basis that it’s been an integral part of traditional music studies for centuries to examine the work of previous masters (or even nursery rhymes for that matter) to help understand how and why certain effects can be created and developed.

There are many variations on the theme of learning your basic craft by studying the examples of others, picking them apart to help equip yourself with a kit of tools, and then use them to create something new and personal.


Classical composers such as as Mozart and Bach did much the same. These guys were no slouches at coming up with their own melodies, yet were also happy to acknowledge their debt to others, in some cases quite directly. (e.g. Brahms’s “Variations on a Theme of Haydn”).

I’ve seen a somewhat similar idea expressed on music forums - such as versions of “I don’t want to learn music theory because it might stunt my creativity”.

- I see theory as “Tools not Rules”


But back to writing melodies....



4. Learn more about what makes a good melody. Generally speaking this includes things like creating and releasing tension, movement, and repetition (particularly repetition coupled with variation) and so on. Even if you can't read music you can learn a few lessons just by looking carefully at scores and seeing how the music flows up and down, how the timing changes, how big or small the gaps up and down are, etc.


The composer should also have some idea of what the journey is about, where it’s going to take the listener, what moods it’s seeking to create, and what emotional story it’s trying to tell along the way. It's when you sit there with nothing at all in place that it can be hard - no idea of what you're trying to write, no story, time signature, key, rhythm, etc and not much in your kit of tools to tell you how to achieve any effects if they do occur to you. But sometimes that can be exciting too...

Chris

if this post is any indication you will be a valuable addition to the forum... welcome... and i should have waited to rep you... it wont show up for awhile...


off the mark??? i say which mark???

the first quotes from you make one of my central points... learning from whats been done before and making hommage to a master... as opposed to "lifting" a melody or progression... the differences are not subtle....

as to the theory study... i prefer to compare it to learning any other language... and it is a language... hate to misquote but cant remember if it's stravinski or debusssy that said "music speaks a language to specific for words" in other words it goes straight to the emotion as opposed to needing to filter through discriptions of earlier/similar experiences... so the central question becomes do you want to speak "french" or merely sound french to those that dont know???

i found your fourth idea on point... though i'll need to think abit more on the last part of it... does the composer need to have a predefined idea of direction?? i've struggled with that personally... but tend towards stravinski's perception... he viewed composition as an exclusionary process... absolutely anything can come next... but i eliminate all but this one idea...

[Byron Yang]

Good stuff on here. Well, for me, I play a lot by ear. In fact, I only play by ear. Okay, you know my history.. I can't read music and I don't have a background in theory. Having said that, an approach that has helped me (and may not be the right method for you) is to take a film score that I liked from a movie, and recontextualize it into my songs with some variations to it.

For example, let's say you like the music from an old Italian drama, you would play that score with your guitar instead. Switch the notes around a bit, and don't copy it exactly like how it is in the movie haha. Then use the melody from a completely different movie that you like, and use that for the chorus. Combine a couple of films into your song. Or just use one movie influence if that is all you need. Don't just stop at films.. use everything! Listen to your squeaky tires, the hum of an electric shaver, etc. Practice "hearing" the world around you. Oh, and don't use mainstream movies that everyone knows. Use the old, obscure foreign films. Any old foreign films. They tend to be very emotional and have a lot of drama in them for some reason lol. With youtube these days, you can find clips here and there to take from. I hope this helps.

-Byron

[gecko zzed]

Originally Posted by dementedchord

as to the theory study... i prefer to compare it to learning any other language... and it is a language... hate to misquote but cant remember if it's stravinski or debusssy that said "music speaks a language to specific for words"

The analogy to a language is a good one, and we can extend it a bit further using Hakea's points here: "Learn more about what makes a good melody. Generally speaking this includes things like creating and releasing tension, movement, and repetition (particularly repetition coupled with variation) and so on."

We all know when we read a good story . . . you know, where you can't put the book down. We all have experiences of bad stories . . . maybe the idea is good, but the writing is pedestrian, dreary and unimaginative. The same elements that make a good story also make a good song, and by examining what writers do to create interest and engagement, we may be able to translate that into a musical expression.

But the key, in my view, is having something to write about. I can remember having to write 'compositions' in primary school . . . and sitting blankly there, chewing the end of a pencil, daydreaming while staring out the window, listening to the squeak squeak of someone on a swing . . . and nothing but a accusatory white page staring at me. I just had no ideas at all, not realising that my lack of ideas was itself an idea worth writing about!

It is useful to have "some idea of what the journey is about", because that can help marshall some errant thoughts into a coherent shape . . . but it is also useful not to tie yourself to the original journey too much, because once started, your footsteps may carry you in surprising and unexpected directions.

As an illustration of this, some musical mates and I get together to record covers of obscure B sides and other songs that strike our fancy. Sometimes we create totally new arrangements, sometimes we just try to reproduce the original as best as we can. So that's the intended journey: faithful reproduction. But we know that in trying this, we will add our own infuences, abilities and tastes, and that in this attempt of reproduction, we won't get a replica . . . we will get something else . . . and that's the exciting bit . . . because we're never quite sure how it will turn out, even though we know the putative intended result.

So . . . when trying to come up with a melody . . . the germ needs to be there . . . the seed that contains the idea of what the song is all about. The seed can be simple: a theme, a word selected at random from a dictionary, a single image from a photo album, a snapshot from a past memory. A lyrical amd melodic story can grow from these single points.