Drums Suck

[stupidfatnugly]

I've been getting feedback that my drum samples are "unconvincing", "too robotic/ mechanical" needs more "punch", more "swing", etc., etc.

any ideas on how to fix this?

you can listen at: http://myspace.com/stupidfatandugly

[WhiteStrat]

Originally Posted by stupidfatnugly

I've been getting feedback that my drum samples are "unconvincing", "too robotic/ mechanical" needs more "punch", more "swing", etc., etc.

any ideas on how to fix this?

you can listen at: http://myspace.com/stupidfatandugly

Okay, I think the "unconvincing" was me, so I'll bite. First, what are you using for drums?

For me, there are two main issues (and both are big)

1) Does the "hit" itself sound real?

In other words, is it an electronic synthesis of a drum sound, or is it a real recorded drum? Assuming it's a real sample, is it a good one?

2) When the "hits" are combined in your drum track, does it sound real?

Here, real means human. Is there some variety in the velocity, or is every hit exactly the same? Are rolls, fills and accents present but varied? No fills at all--or the same fill over and over again is a dead giveaway. Is the timing too perfect? Or is it "humanized" ever so slightly?

Now assuming those are covered, you have to deal with how the drums sit in the mix. Obviously this deals with volume, EQ & compression. All of these are easier to tweak if you have separate tracks for kick, snare, toms, OHs, etc. More on this later (and hopefully from some others, too). In the meantime, tell us what you're using for drums and how much editing capability you have.

[RAMI]

You have to know how a real drummer plays to simulate drum parts. For example, when playing a simple beat, your hi-hat (or ride cymbal) hits can't all be the same volume. The 1,2,3,4 have to be louder than the "and's", if you know what I mean. The 2 and the 4 have to be louder than the 1 and 3, etc... It's not easy to explain because it all comes naturally to a real drummer, but it's very important.

[stupidfatnugly]

yes that makes sense. I will make the "and's" quieter. thank you that is a good one

I use REASON drum kits 2.0 samples and I feel that individually they sound great - as far as I know professionally recorded stuff - but I can't put them together right.

does the 2 and 4 have to be louder on just the hihats or for everything?

example: 1) kick and hihat 2) hihat 3) snare and hihat 4) hihat (in this example it seams strange to have 2 and 4 louder if you're talking kick and snare too)

maybe I'm using too much compression but I want the kick and snare to be loud and consistent.

how can I make the fills sound more real? for example: just a snare-only fill

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by stupidfatnugly

does the 2 and 4 have to be louder on just the hihats or for everything?

maybe I'm using too much compression but I want the kick and snare to be loud and consistent.

how can I make the fills sound more real? for example: just a snare-only fill

When I'm saying the 2 and 4 should be louder, I'm referring to where your snare hits USUALLY are. So, you want the hi-hat to accent that a bit.

The kik and snare should be loud and pretty consistent, but again, no drummer will hit exactly the same way every time, so you can vary that with slight differences in velocity, tone, etc...I don't know how much control you have over all that. You shouldn't need too much compression if you're using samples, though.

As far as making fills sound more real, to me it's all about accents. You can take a simple, constant 16th note roll, and put accents anywhere you want to create more musicality.

[MCI2424]

Originally Posted by WhiteStrat

Okay, I think the "unconvincing" was me, so I'll bite. First, what are you using for drums?

For me, there are two main issues (and both are big)

1) Does the "hit" itself sound real?

In other words, is it an electronic synthesis of a drum sound, or is it a real recorded drum? Assuming it's a real sample, is it a good one?

2) When the "hits" are combined in your drum track, does it sound real?

Here, real means human. Is there some variety in the velocity, or is every hit exactly the same? Are rolls, fills and accents present but varied? No fills at all--or the same fill over and over again is a dead giveaway. Is the timing too perfect? Or is it "humanized" ever so slightly?

Now assuming those are covered, you have to deal with how the drums sit in the mix. Obviously this deals with volume, EQ & compression. All of these are easier to tweak if you have separate tracks for kick, snare, toms, OHs, etc. More on this later (and hopefully from some others, too). In the meantime, tell us what you're using for drums and how much editing capability you have.

I would add that a real drummer (good one that is) goes with the vibe of the music. Like going from a quiet part to a really driven part. The drummer puts that feeling into the playing with harder driving hits. A drum machine with even the best samples cannot easily achieve this. They are getting close with the samplesets, but it is always up to you to program it like a real drummer would play.

[stupidfatnugly]

Originally Posted by RAMI

As far as making fills sound more real, to me it's all about accents. You can take a simple, constant 16th note roll, and put accents anywhere you want to create more musicality.

so I can randomly select one here and there, and increase it's gain to do this?

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by stupidfatnugly

so I can randomly select one here and there, and increase it's gain to do this?

Not randomly. Pick 'em purposefully. You are in effect playing the drums, play them with some soul.

[Soliloquy]Am I the only one who remains totally mystified how it is people wait until after they hit the record button to have these questions?[/Soliliquy]

G.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

Not randomly. Pick 'em purposefully. You are in effect plaything drums, play them with some soul.

Without giving you an online drum lesson, that's the best answer you can get.

[stupidfatnugly]

aight thanks fellas

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

[Soliloquy]Am I the only one who remains totally mystified how it is people wait until after they hit the record button to have these questions?[/Soliliquy]

G.

At certian points along our learning curves it's part of the process of finding out what works and why if it doesn't? They give you the book, you see it done, 'it looks easy' ..then we get it the flight sim., crash, then understand.

[Waffleness]

Diablo piano is awesome. I really like that track.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by mixsit

At certian points along our learning curves it's part of the process of finding out what works and why if it doesn't? They give you the book, you see it done, 'it looks easy' ..then we get it the flight sim., crash, then understand.

Yeah, I guess so. It just seems so often that the order of operation is off, though; that there are so many that jump to the recording stage before they actually have something to record.

G.

[hardwire666]

I used to use Reason Drum kits 2.0 for every thing. Honestly it's where I picked up most of my experience. While I still love RDK2.0 for some stuff, it takes a decent amount of work to make them convincing. Basically all Propellerhead software did was record the different kits for you, and make a vast library of quality one hits. Every thing else is left up to you, including humanizing.

So, things you will generally need to worry about doing on your own are panning, levels, eq'ing, and compression. Then on top of that velocities, if you are using reason 4 then you can also use Re-Groove to help humanize the timing of your tracks. RDK2.0 can yield GREAT results, but it can take sometime, and sleepless nights to squeeze the goodness out of it.

Also if your using reason 3.0 or higher make sure to take advantage of the mastering combinator patches. Notably the de-digitizer, and if i remember correctly the gentle mastering patch. The Rock mastering patch is pretty good too. I used the de-digitizer patch on EVERY song, in conjuntion with either the rock, or gentle patches. It has been about a year since I have used reason for drums, so my brain is a bit fuzzy. If any of this is off slightly forgive me.

Also If you are using a DAW application like Sonar, or Cubase, ect.ect.ect. Personally I would say invest in some thing Like ToonTracks Superior Drumer2.0, since I started using easy drummer I haven't gone back to Reason for natural sounding drums, with out having a real drummer.

and that's my $0.02

[stupidfatnugly]

Originally Posted by Waffleness

Diablo piano is awesome. I really like that track.

yeah that song let me know that I need to learn to mix well b/c the piano all by itself sounds great.

I tweaked the drums on that song in particular: "Addict"

I tried to imagine how it would sound if I was playing real drums so I got the accents on the snare crescendo in the very beginning the way I thought it would go. is it right or close?

[stevieb]

Well, of course drums suck. All drums do- after all, they ARE played by drummers!

JK.

[stupidfatnugly]

Originally Posted by hardwire666

Also if your using reason 3.0 or higher make sure to take advantage of the mastering combinator patches. Notably the de-digitizer, and if i remember correctly the gentle mastering patch. The Rock mastering patch is pretty good too. I used the de-digitizer patch on EVERY song, in conjuntion with either the rock, or gentle patches. It has been about a year since I have used reason for drums, so my brain is a bit fuzzy. If any of this is off slightly forgive me.

Also If you are using a DAW application like Sonar, or Cubase, ect.ect.ect. Personally I would say invest in some thing Like ToonTracks Superior Drumer2.0, since I started using easy drummer I haven't gone back to Reason for natural sounding drums, with out having a real drummer.

and that's my $0.02

thanks for that I have 3.04 I believe and protools le 7.3

[Waffleness]

I read the title of this topic, and got a mental image of a drum kit, with a face on the kick drum looking upset and saying "Shut up, your mum sucks"...

[mcmetal]

Originally Posted by stevieb

Well, of course drums suck. All drums do- after all, they ARE played by drummers!

JK.

How many drummers does it take to screw in a lightbulb-just one to hold it and let the world revolve around him.

I just started using drum samples from beta monkey and so far i dig them a lot.Bad thing about them though is i won't be able to mix each drum individually.They come with the samples already panned across the stereo spectrum.The fills are mixed i think from behind the kit.Whether this is a bad thing or not is still undecided but at least the samples are played by a real drummer.

[WhiteStrat]

Originally Posted by mcmetal

How many drummers does it take to screw in a lightbulb-just one to hold it and let the world revolve around him.

I just started using drum samples from beta monkey and so far i dig them a lot.Bad thing about them though is i won't be able to mix each drum individually.They come with the samples already panned across the stereo spectrum.The fills are mixed i think from behind the kit.Whether this is a bad thing or not is still undecided but at least the samples are played by a real drummer.

I use Beta Monkey too and I really like them. Even though you can't mix each drum, remember that they include numerous single hits from each kit on the disc. I'll often build my own kick track so I can beef it up, or build some accents with cymbals, snares and toms. For prerecorded drum loops, its very flexible.

[mcmetal]

Originally Posted by WhiteStrat

I use Beta Monkey too and I really like them. Even though you can't mix each drum, remember that they include numerous single hits from each kit on the disc. I'll often build my own kick track so I can beef it up, or build some accents with cymbals, snares and toms. For prerecorded drum loops, its very flexible.

Never thought about using the single hits to add accents.Good idea & i'll keep these tips in mind as i'm working with the loops.I used a drum machine before and this is huge step up for me.I just finished up my first drum track for a new song & I have a cd's worth of material i want to record using the loops so i'll be getting a lot of practice with them.

I have the double bass mania 1 & 2 discs.Have you had any problems mixing loops from different discs into the same song? Just wondering if maybe the different discs are using different kits and how well they mix together.They do sound slightly different but so far i've only used the mania 2 loops.

[Supercreep]

Hire a drummer.

I listened to "Addict". Cool song, I like it a lot. The drums sound cheap, though. There's a long sixteenth note snare fill in particular I recall, and the hits just get progressively louder.

Playing a fill like that on a real snare yields completely different results. If you want to use drum machines/samples, you should make them much more lush with better samples and good quality reverb. Mix up the beats, yeah, but easy on the fills - especially snare. It's a really expressive instrument that can't be replaced by samples along a velocity curve.

I think acoustic drums would make a huge difference in the material, because one component in the tune that is lacking to my ears is the weight and presence of "room".

[poor_boy_record]

Originally Posted by stevieb

Well, of course drums suck. All drums do- after all, they ARE played by drummers!

JK.

Geez. thx for that one Stevie. I am a drummer. That really hurt

[guitarded2]

Originally Posted by stupidfatnugly

I've been getting feedback that my drum samples are "unconvincing", "too robotic/ mechanical" needs more "punch", more "swing", etc., etc.

any ideas on how to fix this?

you can listen at: http://myspace.com/stupidfatandugly

Not to be a dick but get some real drums. Only Jesus can turn water into wine.

[DrewPeterson7]

Originally Posted by guitarded2

Not to be a dick but get some real drums. Only Jesus can turn water into wine.

I've heard som PHENOMINAL drum sequencing done with really good samples - in particular, some of the Drumkit from Hell work I've heard has been good enough to the point where unless I was looking for it I'd probably not realize it was sequenced. That's a combination of two factors, though - a great set of samples with a ton of different velicity hits, and a guy using the program who really knows what he's doing.

That said... My drum sequencing is pretty poor, but at least sounds like a believable, fairly fill-devoid and overly even drum performance. This means I'm someone you probably shouldn't listen to, but since this is the internet, um...

The biggest thing you have to do here is to learn to think like a drummer. Spend some time watching videos of drummers for one, and if possible see if you can get behind a drum set. get a feel for how everything's laid out. An eye opener for me was realizing some fairly simple things to do with samples (say, a static 8th note hi-hat groove, with a crash cymbol on the 1 of ever 4th bar or something) that seem pretty logical when you're looking at a screen, are actually pretty unnatural when you're behind a drum kit. I've started to dabble on a drum kit lately (it's a LOT of fun, and my roommate has one, so why not), and in that situation maybe a better drummer could pull it off, but what feels the most natural is to actually drop the hi-hat on the 1, and use the same hand to reach over to the crash for the hit, then come back and resume on the hi-hat, such that the hi-hat drops out for the crash hit. It's little things like that, when you start sequencing keeping in mind that a drummer has 2 hands and 2 feet, so he can't really hit 5 or 6 different things at the same time, or that some motions really just are too unnatural to be feasible.

The other thing worth trying is to sit down with a drum beat, and see if you can sequence it. Try something like "When the Levee Breaks," bone simple but incredibly groovy, just to get your feet wet - you can learn a lot tryting to replicate something an actual player did.