Best affordable reasonable tape machine for a semi-novice

[remotercharm]

Hi everyone, I'm new here.

I have some recording knowledge in that a few years ago i went to a recording workshop in LA and worked around music studios as a slave. Since then I record now digitally using my Sonar Power Studio with the Cakewalk interface.

But now i want to play with a tape machine. I'm pretty techy and link to tinker around a bit and fix things but at the same time i don't have much time and would like to just start recording! I don't know what kind of tape machine to get, i only need 4 tracks. When i search for them it seems everything is from the 70's or something which looks really cool but i dont want to spend $400 on a TEAC 80-8 when i don't even know what to look for to see if its working right ;( Are they difficult to maintain and fix when they break? What happens if the heads are worn out? Can they be replaced? I found someone on craigslist selling a tascam.. I tried to post the picture but it wont let me until ive made at least 5 posts.




He says it is a tascam but doesnt say the model. Says it comes with the dbx noise reduction unit and matching mixer and studio rack.

Should I get something like that or do they have more modern tape machines that are just as good and I can't find them!

I also found someone selling a TEAC 80-8 for $400 but says it needs to re-biased.

[drstawl]

If you are going to go for tape as a "step up" from digital I think that 1/4" formats are going to disappoint you in the long run, although they might be fun to tinker around with.

1/2" tape moving at 15 ips puts you in the realm.

The whole tape medium is a major pain in the ass due to the fact that you don't have random access to the content.

Add to that the noise of keeping the equipment running as advertised due to various mechanical wear issues and I'd have to steer you
away from that idea unless you enjoy the challenge of maintaining obsolete garbage.

That and the cost of a reel of tape!

[SteveM]

In this forum DRStawl, YOU'RE obsolete.

Originally Posted by drstawl

1/2" tape moving at 15 ips puts you in the realm.

1/4" 4 track moving a 15ips is the same as 1/2" 8 track moving at 15ips.

Remotercharm, if you want to get something 1/4" there are alot of decks to consider. Personally I'd look at the TEAC 3340s or 3440s or find another that has built in noise reduction. But it's pretty much a non issue and it'll cost you more. If you keep your eye out you'd probably be able to find something for around $300

[remotercharm]

Originally Posted by SteveM

In this forum DRStawl, YOU'RE obsolete.




1/4" 4 track moving a 15ips is the same as 1/2" 8 track moving at 15ips.

Remotercharm, if you want to get something 1/4" there are alot of decks to consider. Personally I'd look at the TEAC 3340s or 3440s or find another that has built in noise reduction. But it's pretty much a non issue and it'll cost you more. If you keep your eye out you'd probably be able to find something for around $300

I saw a 3340 on sale in good condition for $150 but it sold. I do not know what the difference is between 1/4" and 1/2" except a 1/4" ;p Does it matter? Isn't the 3340 very old? Why dont they new tape machines that sound the same and are just newer?

[remotercharm]

Originally Posted by drstawl

If you are going to go for tape as a "step up" from digital I think that 1/4" formats are going to disappoint you in the long run, although they might be fun to tinker around with.

1/2" tape moving at 15 ips puts you in the realm.

The whole tape medium is a major pain in the ass due to the fact that you don't have random access to the content.

Add to that the noise of keeping the equipment running as advertised due to various mechanical wear issues and I'd have to steer you
away from that idea unless you enjoy the challenge of maintaining obsolete garbage.

That and the cost of a reel of tape!

Well quality costs more and i think it sounds better.

[remotercharm]

Originally Posted by SteveM

In this forum DRStawl, YOU'RE obsolete.




1/4" 4 track moving a 15ips is the same as 1/2" 8 track moving at 15ips.

Remotercharm, if you want to get something 1/4" there are alot of decks to consider. Personally I'd look at the TEAC 3340s or 3440s or find another that has built in noise reduction. But it's pretty much a non issue and it'll cost you more. If you keep your eye out you'd probably be able to find something for around $300

SteveM, one guy is selling this for $400 advertised:


FOR SALE $399.99 FIRM
TEAC 80-8 1/2" REEL TO REEL RECORDER REPRODUCER 15 ips with 10" take up reel and 2 x 10" used reels of RMC 456 formulated tape and manual and some cables.
This machine is fully operational but needs to be re-biased as it does not erase properlly on tracks 4-8 or record correctly on tracks 6-8 I ordered a manual to rebias it but after reading the steps decided it was beyond me.

[hungovermorning]

You have a picture of a Tascam 22-4 (15 IPS 1/4" tape, 4 track). I've owned one for about 2 years. I absolutely love it, cheap to pick one up too. I got stupidly lucky and found one local. I still use it quite often despite also having an Otari 8 track. The tape is cheap and the operation simple.

scott

[sweetbeats]

Remoter,

I'd stay away from the 80-8 that you referenced...If it is not erasing properly on some tracks and not recording properly on others it has any number of issues. You can find one in better operating condition for less if you wait.

One of the more active members in this forum, cjacek, typically offers the very sound advice that model is less important than condition and trying to find local.

I suggest you put those two objectives at the top of the list. If you want to get recording and spend less time tinkering that is...

Also, if long term costs are a concern (because the up-front cost of the deck can be small to the ongoing operational costs of tape and maintenance), then I second the suggestion to look for a 1/4" 4-track deck that'll do 15ips. I had a 3340S a time ago and it sounded incredible, and I have many years of digital work under my belt. I'm back to analog. Not everybody feels that way. Big deal. 1/2" tape is quite a bit more expensive, and you'll be looking for awhile for a 1/2" 4-track and you'll pay a pretty penny for it.

He says it is a tascam but doesnt say the model.

Its a 22-4. That's a 2-speed deck (7.5 and 15ips), 1/4" 4-track deck. It uses the smaller 7-inch reels. The 22 is considered by many to be a good sleeper deal because it shares a lot transport-wise with the semi-pro 30-series...so its kind of a semi-pro deck in prosumer skin...kinda.

Are they difficult to maintain and fix when they break?

Well, that's a pretty big question and it depends on what's broken and what model/make it is. #1 thing to have is a full operations and service manual for whatever deck you get. Between that, passion, a draw to tinkering and help from places like the Analog Only forum you can keep your deck going, learn a lot and have fun in the process. I'm speaking from experience. BUT, again, that's why its important to choose a deck that's in good repair and has been cared for. I typically lean toward the Teac/Tascam decks because they were well-built, were a good deal in their day and therefore are an extra good deal today, there is a strong user-base, and many parts are still available and Teac supports legacy analog gear even from the 70's pretty well. Fostex made good stuff too, but they are less common and parts and support are much more spartan.

What happens if the heads are worn out?

Heads are much cheaper for 1/4" 4-track, so you can either swallow it and get new heads, or typically (unless the heads are really-really shot) you can get them relapped (reshaped and polished)...you can typically do this a time or two before its time for new heads, but you have to run a lot of tape past the heads before you get to that point. Here is a page with pictures of bad heads and some information about head wear...might help you when you are out and about shopping.

I do not know what the difference is between 1/4" and 1/2" except a 1/4"

Well, you know your math... The wider the tape the wider the track when comparing decks of the same number of tracks...Makes sense right? A 1/2" 4-track deck is going to have twice the track width as a 1/4" 4-track. More track surface area means more oxide particles receiving magnetic flux for a given amount of time. Think of it in terms of a higher sampling frquency in teh digital world, though it really is apples and oranges, but hopefully you get the idea. Like I said above, I had a 3340S 1/4" 4-tack that sounded incredible. I now own two 1/2" 8-track decks as well as a 1/4" 2-track mastering deck. Snobs will tell you that anything less than 2" 24-track is not pro and not worth anything. Big deal. 1/4" 4-track track width is equivalent to a 32-track 2" machine...not far off of a 2" 24-track...this is all stoopid hair-splitting though okay? I've heard really great sounding stuff done on cassette 4-track machines...that's got 1/8 the tape real-estate of a 1/4" 4-track open reel machine (1/8" tape running at 3 3/4ips for the cassette-based unit). drstawl will probably tell you that cassette multitrackers are toys, sound like poo and are as useful as teets on a boar-hog...whatever. Big deal. Get a deck, have fun. You'll like the change from digital. At the very least it'll make you a better engineer and get you in touch with visceral instruments of the trade, like holding the paintbrush yourself instead of programming a CNC painting robot designed to do more in less time more "perfectly"...ahhhh that's better...nothing like mating the art of music and fast-food...that's digital...yum, and I'm not a digital hater. I eat fast food. I like the taste of it and it is terrifically convenient at times...even exciting. It has its place and I appreciate its place, but there is a passion and art that can get lost.

Isn't the 3340 very old?

Sure. But the were built from a different design vantage-point...they were built to last. Properly manitained and utilized an analog open-reel deck will outlast a DAW computer many times over, and I manage a 55-seat computer network domain as part of my job. I build and maintain PC's as part of my job. I know how long they last...I'm surprised that drstawl brought up obsolescence... can't use a MOTU 24i with any computer built in the last few years...not compatible with current PCI buss architecture, but its funny how my Tascam 48 works like a charm...I buy readily available tape, load it, turn it on and capture!! And its nearly a quarter century old!! Not really sure what you can do with a 286-based PC these days...I don't think a currently available OS will work with it... But I suppose drsawl would call the 24i a piece of obsolete garbage too because its max sampling frequency is 48k....MUST HAVE NEWEST...MUST HAVE LATEST!!



whatever...big deal.

Why dont they [make] new tape machines that sound the same and are just newer

Not enough market demand.

[remotercharm]

SweetBeats, this is very helpful. Thanks so much for answering my questions.

I think from what you say i will go with the 1/4" then, and yes that makes more sense that they are wider so it would have higher quality, but i guess i was just thinking in terms of wider = more tracks. I'm going for a lo-fi sound anyway.

I think I might email about the Tascam 22-4 then. Do you think it is a good deal?
This is the ad:
Awesome deal. Tascam 4 track recorder with dbx noise reduction unit, matching mixer and custom studio rack on wheels. Excellent condition. Easy to use. comes with cords and original booklet. just had it cleaned and serviced, no problems works great. $375.00 OBO !!!

[sweetbeats]

If you want lo-fi, IMO you're not going to get it with a 1/4 inch 4-track...depending on the deck that format can produce high quality results. Cassette multitrackers may sound more 'lo-fi', though they can produce really great sounding results too. YMMV and all that.

$375 is steep IMO for a 22-4 with n/r and that mixer. You could find a 3340S, 3440, 40-4 or a 34 for that price easy.

[remotercharm]

Originally Posted by sweetbeats

If you want lo-fi, IMO you're not going to get it with a 1/4 inch 4-track...depending on the deck that format can produce high quality results. Cassette multitrackers may sound more 'lo-fi', though they can produce really great sounding results too. YMMV and all that.

$375 is steep IMO for a 22-4 with n/r and that mixer. You could find a 3340S, 3440, 40-4 or a 34 for that price easy.

Okay maybe no lo-fi... but i want it to sound "tapey" ;p

Okay well ill keep my eyes open O_O

So i guess when i find one, I should make the preson record something and play it back on each track to see that it works? And do some tape head inspecting?

[sweetbeats]

Yep-yep! Excellent ideas when shopping. Make sure all the transport functions work, inspect the exterior for signs of any damage/neglect, and look at the heads as a general indicator of mileage and especially look to see that the wear is even.

Also, milk for as much info as you can get about the deck's history.

[mamm7215]

I humbly suggest a Tascam TSR-8. 1/2" 8 track, last model Tascam made so likely to be in better shape than the older ones. I have a '91 refurbished one with 90% heads left and I use it sparingly. $400-500 is ballpark for these guys but I've seen them for a little less on E-bay. Get one with a manual, it'll tell you how to calibrate. Not really very difficult once you get into it. It's got LED meters, but some guys prefer vu meters. I prefer having a sweet 8 track so it's all good to me.
Hope this helps.
Good luck.

[cjacek]

All great advice, except drstawl's

I would like to underline my order of importance when buying decks:

(1) LOCAL LOCAL LOCAL [NO SHIPPING]
(2) TEST IN PERSON
(3) CONDITION

[actually all 3 should be as 1]

....at the very end, far end should be any consideration of make and model.

[cjacek]

remotercharm, where about r u located?

[remotercharm]

Originally Posted by cjacek

remotercharm, where about r u located?

It's interesting to learn that make and model are least important compared to condition. Must be hard to find good condition then.

I'm in Portland, OR

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by remotercharm

It's interesting to learn that make and model are least important compared to condition. Must be hard to find good condition then.

I'm in Portland, OR

Well then you live in a good place! You can get some local help with tascam decks.

--Ethan

[sweetbeats]

Yeah...both Ethan and I are in your "neighborhood".

[remotercharm]

Originally Posted by sweetbeats

Yeah...both Ethan and I are in your "neighborhood".

Oh cool! Hello fellow Portlanders

[SteveM]

Originally Posted by remotercharm

I saw a 3340 on sale in good condition for $150 but it sold. I do not know what the difference is between 1/4" and 1/2" except a 1/4" ;p Does it matter? Isn't the 3340 very old? Why dont they new tape machines that sound the same and are just newer?

Like what sweetbeats said I wouldn't bother with the 80-8 if it has issues. And alot of those decks from the seventies are built fantastic and still work like new. But the 22-4 price doesn't seem that bad to me. I don't know why Sweetbeats thinks it's too high. If it comes with a mixer, because you'll need one. Plus it's or B/O so you could get it for less ....... but I don't know much about the 22-4. Maybe offer him $300 if all works good?

[Hi_Flyer]

Tascam 38s seem to be the easiest to find in the 1/2" 8 track format. Otari stuff is also very nice. I have an MX5050-8 that I incorporate into a digital/analog hybrid setup.

Tascam 388s are another intriguing beast in the "Portastudio" format; 1/4" 8-track deck + mixer all in one. If you could find one in your area (in decent working condition at a decent price) I would jump on that if I were you. It would be a nice intro to the reel to reel world.

You're in a major metropolitan area, so I suggest craigslist. There are probably tons of decent reel to reel decks between Portland/Tacoma/Seattle. Place a "want to buy" (WTB) ad and see where that gets you. Thats how I found my decks in Pittsburgh. Buying local is great advice as other posters already suggested. it doesn't hurt to look on ebay, but I wouldn't try to buy anything thats not within driving distance for pickup.

A couple words of caution...

1- Tape is fun and cool, but its alot of work. Reel to reel decks require upkeep and maintenance; either you learn to do it yourself (and be prepared for a learning curve) or you find somebody to do it for you and pay them alot of money. With old tape decks, you can easily end up doing more tinkering then recording, especially if you get a deck in less than perfect working order.

2- There are hidden expenses like calibration tapes, demaggers, cabling to hook up the mixer, oscilloscopes, the cost of blank tapes, etc...

so just be prepared.

[sweetbeats]

Excellent advice from Hi_Flyer.

I've found my very best "deals" through craigslist for sure.

And, SteveM, I think that's my vantage point with calling the 22-4 listing a bit pricey...kind of a narrow view I guess......that mixer is a Model 2 isn't it? Which I understand not to be a real winner...So I'm thinking I've seen 22-4's typically going for $200-ish (like this example), the DX-4D's can typically be had for $50-ish, and I don't feel the mixer is worth $125...seems you can get an M30, M35, M-208 or even an M-308 for that price...

So that's where I was coming from. Nothing against the 22-4 at all, nor am I trying to steer remoter away from a local offering that may be a good fit.

[hungovermorning]

Never underestimate the benefits of being able to get a machine locally. My uncle who has been a tech for years gave me the best analogy, it's as delicate as a watch movement, but bulky and heavy. Even with a properly packed machine, a lot of terrible things can happen.

[SteveM]

Originally Posted by sweetbeats

..So I'm thinking I've seen 22-4's typically going for $200-ish (like this example), the DX-4D's can typically be had for $50-ish, and I don't feel the mixer is worth $125...seems you can get an M30, M35, M-208 or even an M-308 for that price...

Cool, that IS pretty inexpensive. Like I said I don't know anything about the 22-4. I've never used or seen one but in pictures but they look decent. Good point about the mixers too.

[sweetbeats]

Again, I understand th 22-4 to be a fine deck, and 1/4" tape on 7" reels is relatively really affordable, so its something to think about, but if it were me I'd be waiting, but the nice thing about the 22-4 setup is that its all there. Dunno if I'm helping you or not...

I got my 48 and 58 decks as a pair for $250...that was good fortune. I got my M-520 for $80 total, but it was a 700 mile trip and sleuthing to track down the power-supply. Also had to make the power umbilical...got the Tascam M-___ board for free thanks to shoulderpain, but it was a 2300 mile round-trip and lots of investigative work to create a power supply, make the cable, blah blah blah. SO...My point is that if you wait you can find some incredible deals, and sometimes cheap comes with a price of tinkering as mentioned very well by Hi_Flyer.