Robust, 'budget' condensers for mobile recording?

[Agent47]

Ok, I'm looking to record some round-the-table discussions for podcasts etc. in a month's time. I need a mobile (ie. stuff in a bag) set-up, where I can visit people in their offices/homes and record 2-3 way table discussions. Each of the three mics will be on its own table stand, and go into a small notepad-style mixer, then to a recorder.

Can anyone recommend a tough, large diaphragm condenser that would withstand a lot of travel, but good enough for speech? I'd want low-noise as most of the people aren't broadcasters. Pricewise I'm not wanting to spend more than £100 / $150 each as I'll be buying three of them.

I'm currently looking at these:

Studio Projects B1
Audio Technica AT2020
sE1a

I'm currently favouring the B1, but I have no idea how it sounds at this stage. I'm tempted by the sE1a, although this is an instrument mic and probably won't give me a nice speech sound - but is small and tough-looking.

Anyone else do this kind of thing - recommendations, suggestions?

Thanks,

A.

[KineticSound]

Actually, my opinion of which would be the most robust of the three would be the AT2020, although it doesn't seem to be your top choice.

I own two of these and use them often for voice work (my studio's primary function is voiceover recording), and I like them very well. They're also built like tanks and would hold up well on the road.

Just curious... if you're recording live round-table discussions, have you considered using an omni mic? Something like an Audio Technica U851R or a Shure MX393 could be just the ticket.

[Agent47]

Thanks.

I haven't really thought about going omni - might look into a mic with that option. I'll check out the ones you mention. I do a lot of radio programmes and I like to give each contributer their own mic, then ride the levels of each one as the discussion happens. I'm worried about picking up too much of the room, which I think I'd get if I left one omni mic open the whole time.

I bet those AT2020s really are built like tanks. I've used ATs over the years and they have a good solid construction. How's the noise on the 2020s? I use 4033a's and get a fair bit of noise on quiet voices. Nice wide pickup though, with little colouration off axis, which is great for when you have a fidgeter... I've used Neumanns for radio discussions in the past, and would easily choose an AT over a Neumann for radio!

Definitely still an option, I'm just trying to narrow my selection down at the moment!

Just need something that's a good balance of affordable, clean sound and tough enough to throw into a holdall when I race out the door...

[antichef]

The Naiants are mostly omnis and are designed to go with portable setups. I'm not sure which one would be best, but the X-T seems worth thinking about. I've got one -- haven't used it much yet, but I it seemed nice with a speaking voice.

The only real experience I have in this area is using SM7b mics with an ART Digital MPA - I got good results, but the MPA isn't extremely portable.

[KineticSound]

Originally Posted by Agent47

I do a lot of radio programmes and I like to give each contributer their own mic, then ride the levels of each one as the discussion happens. I'm worried about picking up too much of the room, which I think I'd get if I left one omni mic open the whole time.

Definitely a possiblity. I suppose if you're recording in someone's home or untreated office, the noise could absolutely be a consideration.

Originally Posted by Agent47

I bet those AT2020s really are built like tanks. I've used ATs over the years and they have a good solid construction. How's the noise on the 2020s? I use 4033a's and get a fair bit of noise on quiet voices. Nice wide pickup though, with little colouration off axis, which is great for when you have a fidgeter... I've used Neumanns for radio discussions in the past, and would easily choose an AT over a Neumann for radio!

They are indeed fairly rugged. I own some other AT's that are less heavy than the 2020's, and also that have some higher self-noise. The 2020's output is a little "hotter" than some of the other AT's I've used, and the noise seems respectable for the price point. They're cheap enough that you wouldn't cringe putting them in your bag.

[Agent47]

Great. I'll see if I can get a demo somewhere. I'm now looking around at flash recorders...

[LemonTree]

I'd go for a hand held recorder for a jub like this. Fits in your pocket, no setting up. Just turn it on and start recording.

[Agent47]

Yeah, I'm looking at the Zoom H2 at the moment. Cheap enough, but packed with all the gubbins I'd need. I'd run the mics from the small mixer into that as a stereo mix. Then it's just drag 'n drop when I get back to my studio for the edit/mix.

[hairylarry]

Originally Posted by Agent47

Yeah, I'm looking at the Zoom H2 at the moment. Cheap enough, but packed with all the gubbins I'd need. I'd run the mics from the small mixer into that as a stereo mix. Then it's just drag 'n drop when I get back to my studio for the edit/mix.

Agent47,

If you could find a little recorder with 4 inputs then you wouldn't need to carry the mixer and you could adjust gain in post.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by hairylarry

Agent47,

If you could find a little recorder with 4 inputs then you wouldn't need to carry the mixer and you could adjust gain in post.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry

Yeah, I'd be looking at an Edirol R44. Riding faders for recording does not sound like a great idea to me. Live sound, live broadcast, sure. But if you catch a loud talker halfway through a word/sentence with a fader, that just makes the volume envelope harder to draw when processing in post, and it will screw with a compressor too.

[hairylarry]

Originally Posted by mshilarious

Yeah, I'd be looking at an Edirol R44. Riding faders for recording does not sound like a great idea to me. Live sound, live broadcast, sure. But if you catch a loud talker halfway through a word/sentence with a fader, that just makes the volume envelope harder to draw when processing in post, and it will screw with a compressor too.

The Edirols are nice but pricey. Back in the days of cassette tape you could get 4 channels in. Now that we're digital everything is either stereo or mucho dinero.

So I would cheap out like this. Run two mics into my Zoom H4 and two mics into my Iriver H320. Then I'd synchronize the tracks in my DAW and have 4 simultaneous ins on two stereo recorders. Probably work fine for interviews.

Now to get back to the topic at hand. The Audio Technica MB4000c is an electret condenser microphone at a budget price. It runs off of batteries or phantom power. It's very robust and attractive. It might be a better interview mic than the AT2020 and probably equally budget and more robust.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry

[Agent47]

Thanks guys.

That Edirol looks expensive for what it is IMO. To be honest, 98% of the radio work I do is just mixed on the fly to stereo - mainly due to client time (as always). Yes, it would be an ideal world where I can load in 4 separate tracks then do the perfect automated mix, but I'm kind of used to getting it right during the record - and picking up if I do a late-fade...

Harrylarry - using two recorders sounds like a recipe for disaster! How would I monitor it all off-tape? I'd have to run them into a mixer just to monitor as it's recording. Plus I'd be concerned about the two recordings drifting (ok, maybe I'm paranoid, but something weird could happen!). Sounds too scary for me!

I'm checking out the MB 4000c. Looks like a tough little mic... Definitely a contender.

Cheers,

A.

[dgatwood]

The AT2020 is a SDC; the B1 (at least stock) is a bit too bright and brittle for my taste.

For voice, I'd check into the CAD M177 or M179. You can usually get the 177 for not too much more than the B1.

[apl]

Originally Posted by antichef

The Naiants are mostly omnis and are designed to go with portable setups. I'm not sure which one would be best, but the X-T seems worth thinking about. I've got one -- haven't used it much yet, but I it seemed nice with a speaking voice.

The only real experience I have in this area is using SM7b mics with an ART Digital MPA - I got good results, but the MPA isn't extremely portable.

+1.

And you can plug them straight into your interface because they're built into an XLR connector.

[LP2006]

Originally Posted by hairylarry

The Edirols are nice but pricey. Back in the days of cassette tape you could get 4 channels in. Now that we're digital everything is either stereo or mucho dinero.

So I would cheap out like this. Run two mics into my Zoom H4 and two mics into my Iriver H320. Then I'd synchronize the tracks in my DAW and have 4 simultaneous ins on two stereo recorders. Probably work fine for interviews.

Now to get back to the topic at hand. The Audio Technica MB4000c is an electret condenser microphone at a budget price. It runs off of batteries or phantom power. It's very robust and attractive. It might be a better interview mic than the AT2020 and probably equally budget and more robust.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry

I own an MB4000c. It is definitely on the noisier side. It doesn't sound all that great either, and the output isn't very hot.

On the other hand, the hand-held style of vocal mic might be the way to go. These types of mics have built-in windscreens and shock-mounting. Not to mention, they tend to be very durable.

Audio Technica makes a hand-held version of the 2020 called the 2010. It is the SNR as the 2020 and is dirt cheap too!

[Agent47]

Thanks guys.

A lot too choose from. I think I'm still looking at some kind of large diaphragm at the moment - to get a decent enough speech sound.

dgatwood - yes I guess the B1 would be a bit brittle. If only I can get a demo somewhere where I can compare and contrast!

[hairylarry]

Originally Posted by Agent47

Thanks guys.

That Edirol looks expensive for what it is IMO. To be honest, 98% of the radio work I do is just mixed on the fly to stereo - mainly due to client time (as always). Yes, it would be an ideal world where I can load in 4 separate tracks then do the perfect automated mix, but I'm kind of used to getting it right during the record - and picking up if I do a late-fade...

Harrylarry - using two recorders sounds like a recipe for disaster! How would I monitor it all off-tape? I'd have to run them into a mixer just to monitor as it's recording. Plus I'd be concerned about the two recordings drifting (ok, maybe I'm paranoid, but something weird could happen!). Sounds too scary for me!

I'm checking out the MB 4000c. Looks like a tough little mic... Definitely a contender.

Cheers,

A.

Agent47,

I, like you, was stunned by the cost of the Edirol 4 track. It seems like someone ought to make a little flash recorder that accepts 4 inputs at a reasonable price. Even if two of the tracks were through preamps and two were through a line in it would be cool. With only two tracks you are definitely limited to a stereo pair or maybe one track for the band and one for the vocals ending up with a mono mix. To me four inputs is the minimum required for multitracking. The tape portastudios had four simultaneous inputs but in the digital world it's rare. (Please help us out if anyone knows of other solutions like maybe a USB interface to a laptop)

Using two stereo recorders for four tracks was kind of off the wall. I think the biggest problem would be when one had a problem and the other didn't you wouldn't get everyone's voices.

But they won't drift. I often record stereo to a small recorder when shooting videos and I only have to make one sync point work and then the whole video remains in sync. Every tape machine runs at it's own speed. Tape machines won't sync with video or anything. Digital recordings will sync with video and themselves well.

As far as monitoring goes you would use two headphones to check the signal and then use the levels during the interview. Since you would be fixing final levels in post you wouldn't have to constantly monitor them freeing you to concentrate on your interview.

This is definitely a kludge though and I wouldn't really recommend it. Just an off the wall suggestion.

Here is a suggestion on how to record three voices to stereo and still maintain some control in post. Pan one voice left, one voice right, and one (probably yours) center. Then you can adjust levels on the interviewees and hopefully yours will be good too. You could end up with a mono mix or a light stereo mix blended towards mono. You wouldn't want full stereo or if a receiver lost a channel they would lose a voice.

I really don't think LDCs are good for recording interviews. They pick up everything. There is a reason why interview mics like the EV 635a have an attenuated frequency response. They are tailored for human voices and designed to eliminate rumble, wind, and excessive room noise.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry

[mshilarious]

I don't think the R44 is as expensive as it seems. It has four really good preamps with phantom power and good A/D conversion. If you go with a stereo recorder and an outboard mixer, well first off you have to spec a battery-powered mixer, you're probably close to $500 for a stereo mix to a two-track recorder. If you don't need four tracks or the preamp or A/D quality, then I would understand passing on the R44, but I don't think that makes it expensive for what it is. Heck, I paid $700 for a Tascam 424 in 1997 . . . and that has no phantom power and isn't battery powered!

[apl]

Originally Posted by hairylarry

There is a reason why interview mics like the EV 635a have an attenuated frequency response. They are tailored for human voices and designed to eliminate rumble, wind, and excessive room noise.

Yeah, most of what you need to understand speech is between 0.5 and 3k. See Speech Intelligibility Index, &c.

[antichef]

That R44 sure does look cool -- the "pre-record" function sounds like a killer feature.

[Agent47]

HairyLarry - yeah, that's the one thing I'm concerned about - LDCs just suck-up EVERY sound, and I'm not going to be recording in an ideal environment at all. So I'd expect outside traffic, people walking down the corridor, pipes, people upstairs...

My aim is to record round-the-table discussions kind of thing, so, say one anchor and two guests having a chit-chat. But the room will be far from ideal as I'll be travelling to them.

Would you ever consider end-fire pencil-type instrument mics for speech? I've been recommended the SE1a. Those pencil ones seem pretty tough, but I'd be worried about the voice sound on them - maybe too thin?

[hairylarry]

Originally Posted by Agent47

HairyLarry - yeah, that's the one thing I'm concerned about - LDCs just suck-up EVERY sound, and I'm not going to be recording in an ideal environment at all. So I'd expect outside traffic, people walking down the corridor, pipes, people upstairs...

My aim is to record round-the-table discussions kind of thing, so, say one anchor and two guests having a chit-chat. But the room will be far from ideal as I'll be travelling to them.

Would you ever consider end-fire pencil-type instrument mics for speech? I've been recommended the SE1a. Those pencil ones seem pretty tough, but I'd be worried about the voice sound on them - maybe too thin?

Agent47,

You could try some lav mics. I've been buying vintage EV lav mics for $20-$30 each. Generally speaking they go for less used than studio mics.

If you really want mics out on the table maybe some hypercardiod dynamics like the AKG D690. These are instrument mics but they work well on vocals. You might want to cut your lows on your mixer. Omnis out on the table will pick up a lot of room noise but not like a studio condenser will.

You might try purchasing one mic first and testing it in a worst case scenario.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry

[KineticSound]

Originally Posted by Agent47

...so I'd expect outside traffic, people walking down the corridor, pipes, people upstairs...

Would you ever consider end-fire pencil-type instrument mics for speech? I've been recommended the SE1a. Those pencil ones seem pretty tough, but I'd be worried about the voice sound on them - maybe too thin?

If I can chime in here again, I think you'll need to make some trade-off's. IMHO, while a pencil-type condenser such as an SE1a or Sterling ST31 would likely sound just fine on speech, it would likely have the same noise efficiency as a larger diaphragm model. You might make small gains (no pun intended) with the SDC, however the noise challenges would likely be about the same. The best method of rejecting outside noise in your case would be to switch to a shotgun-style microphone. However, in doing so you'd be sacrificing some of the "ruggedness" of the other options already discussed. Larry's suggestion of a lavlier is a good option, as well.

[amarach]

How about an iPod and the blue Mikey?
has anybody used these?
it's cheap (if you already have an iPod) and is definately portable.

[Agent47]

Hmmm.... I'm now thinking of getting maybe some Se2a's - as they'll do hypercardiod which should reject room reflections better than a cardiod... Plus I guess they're pretty tough and fairly small.