Do I still need a preamp... ? detail inside... plz help !

[Beeros]

Hi everyone, first of all, I would like to say hi to everybody here! I just found this site and it looks great and really helpful...

So, Im new in the world of home recording and I got a quick question for you guys..

I recently bought some equipement to record my music on my computer : an edirol ua-25 usb sound card with two mics : a shure sm57 and a sm58

Im not quite satisfied with the sound i get...

BTW, i play mostly heavy stuff ( metal, metalcore, etc.. ) and my amp is a peavey 6505+ with maxon808 and Boss EQ...

The question is, Is adding a preamp between the mics and the edirol soundcard ( which already have a ''so-called'' preamp on each XLR inputs ) will really improve my sound ??

If yes, which one should I buy ? ( with at least with 2 mics inputs )

...and I red a bit about phase cancellation and all that... but i record the two mics on a single track for each mics so I don't think that's the problem... anyways i wasn't satisfied with the sound i was getting with a single mic ( sounded too thin, no balls )

Thank you all for your replies !

[8bus]

What software are you using???

[punkin]

My recommendation before you get on the more gear bandwagon would be to read up and experiment, experiment, experiement with what you already have. I'd be looking at mic positioning levels, tone control and distortion setting all over the place.

These forums will get you going in the right direction and could save you some bucks.

I'd also like to suggest you post a sound clip and give us a detailed run down on what you're doing and how you're doing it.

The SM57 and 58 are great for the application. I'm hoping someone with more background with your interface has some insight. Assuming it's a reasonably clean and uncoloured package, I'd say again work on your technique and sound control.

WELCOME ABOARD!

[steve.h]

Originally Posted by Beeros

Hi everyone, first of all, I would like to say hi to everybody here! I just found this site and it looks great and really helpful...

So, Im new in the world of home recording and I got a quick question for you guys..

I recently bought some equipement to record my music on my computer : an edirol ua-25 usb sound card with two mics : a shure sm57 and a sm58

Im not quite satisfied with the sound i get...

BTW, i play mostly heavy stuff ( metal, metalcore, etc.. ) and my amp is a peavey 6505+ with maxon808 and Boss EQ...

The question is, Is adding a preamp between the mics and the edirol soundcard ( which already have a ''so-called'' preamp on each XLR inputs ) will really improve my sound ??

If yes, which one should I buy ? ( with at least with 2 mics inputs )

...and I red a bit about phase cancellation and all that... but i record the two mics on a single track for each mics so I don't think that's the problem... anyways i wasn't satisfied with the sound i was getting with a single mic ( sounded too thin, no balls )

Thank you all for your replies !

Dude, if you're running an overdrive pedal into a 6505, and are no doubt EQ'ing a bunch of the midrange out (if not, I'm pleasantly surprised!), that's why you're getting a super-thin sound.

If you want to get your shit awesome, post some clips, post your settings on your amp, get rid of the overdrive & EQ, and let's get down to business!

[Beeros]

Wow thx for the quick replies !

I'm using Sonar 6 producer edition...

I cut just a tinny bit of mid-range with my EQ... i find that the 6505 has plenty of mid so i just like to defined my tone with removing a bit of 800 and 1.6k ...

I'll post some clips soon !

Is this true that the sound or the tone that i wanna hear in my headphones or monitors will frequently not be the same as the sound that comes directly by the amp and cabinet ?

I mean, maybe i must change settings on my amps in order to get a tone that is not my favorite at normal ear, but will sound better on the recording ???

BTW, whats the best amp volume setting to record.... because logically, the more i crank the volume of my amp, the more i need to lower the mics ''sens'' ( i suppose it's sort of a preamp level ) on my edirols ( if not, it clip or distort) . And with the level of the ''sens'' down, the quality of the sound seems to lower too.... So my guess is that it's useless to record with my amp cranked up... Am I right ?

thx again and I'll post some clips soon...

[Outlaws]

Originally Posted by Beeros

Is this true that the sound or the tone that i wanna hear in my headphones or monitors will frequently not be the same as the sound that comes directly by the amp and cabinet ?

Well nothing is perfect, but the real problem is the sound you hear, and like, coming out of the amp includes the rooms reverberations. The sound the mic is picking up (I presume you are close mic'ing?) is how you would hear it if you stuck your ear right on the grill.

Try mic'ing different areas of the speaker. Use a reverb plug-in for a little reverb if you need to also. It doesn't have to be a lot, but even just a hair can do wonders.

[Beeros]

here's a small sample clip... probably the best sound i could get... i tried differents mics position and amp settings.... ignore the sloppy playing ...


beeros2009.fileave.com/test.wav

copy-paste the link please... the site told me that i cant post URL cuz i did not make 5 post or more....

so .... any tips to make my tone better??? ... like i said before... would a preamp between the mics and my edirol sound card help ?

[Beeros]

is the link working ???

[Wireneck]

I won't get into the details because there is way too much info already available online and I make no claims of being an expert on the subject. Having said that, I have spent many hours in studios that predominantly deal with the more extreme genres of rock/metal. I say this with the greatest respect (being a huge metal fan). Metal production is all about deception. Almost everything that you think is heavy/and full of bass or loaded up with gain sounds completely different taken out of the context of the mix. It is one big smoke and mirrors act involving tons of editing, tons of sound replacement/manipulation and lots of layering/stacking.
Without hearing your clips it is hard to know but a very common mistake right off is way too much gain and not enough mids. The lows will mostly come off of the bass and the drums. Post some clips and perhaps we can help you get something closer to what you are looking for.

also...welcome aboard

[Wireneck]

The tone is a little fuzzy for my taste but I have never really cared for the Peavey 5150 etc.. sound. At any rate, it sounds like it could be usable to me in the context of a mix. You will gain some fullness once you double track (or quad on a lot of metal productions) and add some wide panning.

[steve.h]

When starting out, most people gravitate towards what I like to call the "bacon" tone, as it sounds exactly like sizzling bacon. Listening to your tone sample, it sounds like you've escaped some of this phenomenon, but you've still got a bit too much in the high-end to me, and not enough balls.

With respect to your volume question, if the tone you've got keeps sounding worse the louder you turn up the amp, then you're most likely doing something wrong. Tube amps almost always sound better when cranked. This is due to the nature of the distortion. When you've got the gain cranked and the volume low, you're using PRE-amp distortion: ie, using the pre-amp tubes for your distortion. Pre-amp distortion can make the amp sound decent at quiet volumes, which is good for when you're practicing by yourself or generally don't have to/want to be loud, but when playing with a band, and DEFINITELY when you're recording, you want to be using POWER-tube distortion. If you look into the back of your amp, the big tubes are the ones you want to be using. The little tubes (which might be in little metal housings) are the pre-amp tubes.

To figure out what a good recording volume is, you want to get the amp loud enough to get some cabinet involvement. If you turn your gain way down (let's say at 2 or 3, just for our experiment), get rid of the eq & overdrive pedal, turn the bass to about 2, mids to 6, and treble to 4, and start turning the main volume up, you will hear the tone start to change and get dirtier. There's going to be a "sweet spot" somewhere before you're at max volume (assuming the power tubes aren't shot), going past which makes everything start to sound farty and terrible. Get to the farty terrible region and back it down a notch or two, and you'll most likely be where you wanna be. From here, it's all a matter of taste. If necessary, start turning up the gain while "chugging" on the guitar, until you get to the point where it starts to get static-y and fuzzy, and back it down to a level where you've got some balls and some meat. You want this thing to sound like 100 Harley's all cranked, not 100 crotch rocket pieces of shit all buzzing down the highway. Think 60's Mustang, not 2000's riced-out Honda Civic. The biggest reason for this one is because you're going to want to record the rhythm tracks four separate times: two on the right, and two on the left, and four shitty bacon-sizzling shit tracks will just sound like a static-y mess. No copying tracks: that's just turning the volume up, not thickening the sound. Copying tracks is like doubling every ingredient when making pancakes: you'll just end up with more of the same.

Focus on getting kick-ass tone before you start to think of where to put the microphone. That way, you're starting with something kick-ass and working your way down, vs. starting with something utterly mediocre and trying to claw your way back to something remotely respectable.

Read the bible: http://badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html

[WhiteStrat]

Originally Posted by steve.h

Focus on getting kick-ass tone before you start to think of where to put the microphone. That way, you're starting with something kick-ass and working your way down, vs. starting with something utterly mediocre and trying to claw your way back to something remotely respectable.

Very well said.

Originally Posted by steve.h

Read the bible: http://badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html

Yep. A must read. All of it.

[Beeros]

thx again for your replies folks....

and steve h. i think you misunderstood my point about the volume of the amp... i know that my amp sound millions times better when cranked up, but when i crank it, i must lower the '' sens '' ( sort of a preamp gain i suppose... ) of the mics inputs on my edirol sound card so the sound do not distort or clip... and by lowering that, i seem to loose the quality ( or the balls ) of the tone....

That's why my first question was ... do i still need a better preamp between the sound card and the mics ??? Maybe the the little preamps included in my edirol sound card are just too weak ....

Because one thing is sure, my amp does not sound like the little sample clip I posted when heard live in my house

[Rust E-Z]

If it were me (disclaimer since this is all very subjective) I would want some more ambiance. You could try adding some reverb in post, or pulling a mic back from the amp. I read some wear about putting an amp on a linoleum floor and placing the mic about four feet back aimed at the floor space between. I did that and got great results. Bottom line, play with your space and mic placement. (this reminds me I need to get a piece of plywood and some linoleum for my current carpeted space.)
Also you could get a much thicker sound by over dubbing more guitar with different tone (usually different amps if ya got em.)
just play with your mics you'll learn alot.

Good luck
Rusty Z

[scrubs]

To answer your question directly: No, you do not need a new/better preamp...at least, it won't make nearly as much difference as getting the sound right at the source (guitar, amp, & mic are more important, imo).

[steve.h]

Originally Posted by Beeros

thx again for your replies folks....

and steve h. i think you misunderstood my point about the volume of the amp... i know that my amp sound millions times better when cranked up, but when i crank it, i must lower the '' sens '' ( sort of a preamp gain i suppose... ) of the mics inputs on my edirol sound card so the sound do not distort or clip... and by lowering that, i seem to loose the quality ( or the balls ) of the tone....

That's why my first question was ... do i still need a better preamp between the sound card and the mics ??? Maybe the the little preamps included in my edirol sound card are just too weak ....

Because one thing is sure, my amp does not sound like the little sample clip I posted when heard live in my house

Make sure that you're conscious of the artificial correlation between 'loudness' and 'quality' that the human ear can so easily fall subject to. Almost everything seems to sound 'better' if it's louder. Unless there's something wrong with your interface, you shouldn't be having any problem with the 'sens' knob changing the perceived 'balls' of your tone.

Knowing nothing of how good of a player you/whoever you're recording is/are, what guitar/pickups you're using, what gauge strings, how new said strings are, what cab you're using, what kind of condition the amp/tubes/cab are in, or the room you're recording it in, your quest for recorded tone is likely being held back by your rig's tone and your mic placement. Experiment, then experiment, then experiment again. If you really want to gain some knowledge, set up a camera on a tripod in front of the cab, open a Sonar session, and start recording & documenting what different mic placements look/sound like. It won't be a perfect test, as there are quite a few variables, but looking at the pictures and combining them with the sound clips, you should be able to start training your ears/eyes for the different tones you can get with mic placement alone. It's essentially an EQ before you EQ anything.

Hope this helps!

[drossfile]

note to the OP:

listen to steve.h. this guy has the best sounding recordings at this bbs, bar none. i'm not exaggerating, and this is an unsolicited opinion. if you don't believe it, check out his website. he is, as they say, the s**t.

[Beeros]

ok well i'll experiment then.... and see if i can perfect my tone... thank you so much guys.... but be sure that i'll come back with more question on recording soon

[MCI2424]

Originally Posted by Beeros

thx again for your replies folks....

and steve h. i think you misunderstood my point about the volume of the amp... i know that my amp sound millions times better when cranked up, but when i crank it, i must lower the '' sens '' ( sort of a preamp gain i suppose... ) of the mics inputs on my edirol sound card so the sound do not distort or clip... and by lowering that, i seem to loose the quality ( or the balls ) of the tone....

That's why my first question was ... do i still need a better preamp between the sound card and the mics ??? Maybe the the little preamps included in my edirol sound card are just too weak ....

Because one thing is sure, my amp does not sound like the little sample clip I posted when heard live in my house

Your sondcard has no headroom. Soundcards only have somewhere in the vacinity of +/- 5 vDC to run any active compunents. You are clipping because your souncard has such low voltage. A good pre-amp will have like 80V rails. The issue is that your soundcard will be OK at line level, but it's pre-amps have no headroom. That is, if you actually have mic pre-amps at all. I don't know that card.

[steve.h]

Originally Posted by MCI2424

Your sondcard has no headroom. Soundcards only have somewhere in the vacinity of +/- 5 vDC to run any active compunents. You are clipping because your souncard has such low voltage. A good pre-amp will have like 80V rails. The issue is that your soundcard will be OK at line level, but it's pre-amps have no headroom. That is, if you actually have mic pre-amps at all. I don't know that card.

Clipping because of low voltage could potentially be an issue, but sending someone down the path of blaming their equipment for their audio shortfalls in many cases does more harm than good!

That said, here are the specs for his interface:

http://www.rolandus.com/products/pro...x?ObjectId=704


I don't know much about the various voltages and such involved with recording: a lack of knowledge I plan on remedying this year

[suprstar]

Originally Posted by drossfile

note to the OP:

listen to steve.h. this guy has the best sounding recordings at this bbs, bar none. i'm not exaggerating, and this is an unsolicited opinion. if you don't believe it, check out his website. he is, as they say, the s**t.

I came to say pretty much that exact thing. But since it's already been said, carry on.....

[MCI2424]

Originally Posted by steve.h

Clipping because of low voltage could potentially be an issue, but sending someone down the path of blaming their equipment for their audio shortfalls in many cases does more harm than good!

That said, here are the specs for his interface:

http://www.rolandus.com/products/pro...x?ObjectId=704


I don't know much about the various voltages and such involved with recording: a lack of knowledge I plan on remedying this year

They say it has phantom powered pre-amps. The 48 volt powersupply is in the box. It looks like it should work (I thought it was a souncard where there is never anything close to 48 volts). His clipping is not the mic, probably not the interface, but the +4dbU output feeding the -10 input of the recording program. Check settings in Sonar.

Or a bad mic, bad interface or bad cable.

[Beeros]

Originally Posted by MCI2424

His clipping is not the mic, probably not the interface, but the +4dbU output feeding the -10 input of the recording program. Check settings in Sonar.

Yeah I think that can make sense ! but how can I correct that in Sonar ?? how can i change the -10 dbU input that you're talking about ? Sorry I'm new with all that home recording thing...

[doulos24]

It comes down to gear and skill to get huge massive guitar recordings you don’t need the amps cranked to get great tone all you add is a higher noise floor buzzing in the cabinet more hiss and hum what I would do is back off the gain a little more yes I said back off the gain then I would if possible use a limiter before going into the sound card cause you will get a lot louder useful signal going in which Is needed at this age of over compressed radio ready demo garbage then you stack your guitar tracks less gain stacks better then more gain experiment but when you have like 2 or 3 layered tracks you will hear the effect listen to the first recording want more bottom end leave the gain alone and bring the mic lower and closer get a good low end tone second pass concentrate on the highs and blend to taste

[steve.h]

Originally Posted by doulos24

It comes down to gear and skill to get huge massive guitar recordings you don’t need the amps cranked to get great tone all you add is a higher noise floor buzzing in the cabinet more hiss and hum what I would do is back off the gain a little more yes I said back off the gain then I would if possible use a limiter before going into the sound card cause you will get a lot louder useful signal going in which Is needed at this age of over compressed radio ready demo garbage then you stack your guitar tracks less gain stacks better then more gain experiment but when you have like 2 or 3 layered tracks you will hear the effect listen to the first recording want more bottom end leave the gain alone and bring the mic lower and closer get a good low end tone second pass concentrate on the highs and blend to taste

. *shift* . *shift* , "and" . *shift* ( ) , , ' , *no shift* *no space* - , - . *shift* ( *than ). *shift* , . *shift* . *shift* ? *shift* . *shift* , .

You missed these keys, my friend. They're generally regarded as somewhat necessary to properly convey the message you intend through the English language. I recommend using them from time to time, sort of like salt and/or pepper on a meal.

That said, some of what you said was true, but not really anything that hadn't been said already in this thread. If you disagree with my statement about cranking a tube amp for sweet tone, let's hear your tone samples. I'm willing to admit there is a possibility that you've discovered how to get great tone without utilizing the speaker-bending or cabinet involvement that you get when an amp is turned up, and to admit that there's a possibility that you've found a form of pre-amp gain that's not fuzzy and shitty compared to power-amp gain, but I recommend you write up some detailed articles on how you've achieved this, as it pretty much goes against everything we've learned as engineers since the dawn of rock.

You could be right though...