Archtop question for Muttley, Light and anyone else...

[32-20-Blues]

Purely out of curiosity, when dealing with solid top archtops, is the difference between a carved top and a pressed top hugely noticeable?

I know that other aspects of the build come into play, but is there a general rule of thumb that states that one method is better than the other?

It seems to me that carved tops, simply because of the work that goes into making them, are more of an 'elite' feature, for want of a better term. However, it strikes me that a pressed top of decent quality wood should sound perfectly fine.

Many thanks.

[Light]

Well, this is definitely more Muttley's bailiwick, but yes there is a difference. A pressed top is going to throw the density of the wood all out of whack, and what you are looking for in a guitar top is usually the best strength to weight ratio possible - which is pretty heavily influenced by the density of the top.

That's my non-scientific way of seeing it. I'll let Muttley go into the science and detail. He makes these things, after all, and I don't. I'm a flat top and electric guy.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[muttley600]

I'm in a bit of hurry at the moment so for starters I'll only say this.

From a tonal point of view. The laminate top is your pasteurised milk. With a carved spruce top you are getting the cream.

Seriously it does make a huge difference in the subtle tonality and also in the ability to get a variety of dynamics from the instrument. It's something you never realise until yo have played them both for a period of time. Nothing wrong with either but there is most definitely a difference in the hands of an expressive player.

It's no different from a normal acoustic. Why should spruce be the way to go on a flat top and not laminate?

[muttley600]

Ant particular reason why you ask? Are you looking at anything?

[TWANGthang]

I'm a little confused.. in another thread I understood you to say that laminate
didn't affect tone as much as I had thought.
That is, that solid wood on the top would be better, in each case, compared to laminate.
Now.. it seems you say it does make a difference.

I always thought there was less vibration with laminate woods..and that was a good reason to use it with electric semi hollow.. allowing less feedback due to less vibration.

What'd I miss, Mutt?
TWANG

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by TWANGthang

I'm a little confused.. in another thread I understood you to say that laminate
didn't affect tone as much as I had thought.
That is, that solid wood on the top would be better, in each case, compared to laminate.
Now.. it seems you say it does make a difference.

I always thought there was less vibration with laminate woods..and that was a good reason to use it with electric semi hollow.. allowing less feedback due to less vibration.

What'd I miss, Mutt?
TWANG

No in another thread you said that laminate doesn't "vibrate" as much. That is incorrect.

In short the mechanics and physics of acoustics isn't as simple as that. There are many misconceptions about how sound is made and propagated that was all I was pulling you up on and it was nothing personal. If you remember I did it with lots of smilies and for me, lots of tact.

The question of is one better from an acoustical or dynamic range point of view is concerned is a different one.

[chazba]

If you want to get up close and personal about it, you'll have to go to Gruhn in Nashville or Elderly in Lansing and get your hands on a few of each type. Start w/ a Gibson ES-175 as a good example of the laminate top. Next, check out a Super 400 or an L-7 or a Johnny Smith, all primo carved-top instruments. I'm sure that you will have all your questions answered. Oh yeah...don't forget the Byrdland. One thing to remember...all the Carved top axes will have a bunch of deluxe features such as ebony fb's. deluxe bindings, beautiful maple necks etc, all of which add to their value and vibe.

chazba

[32-20-Blues]

Originally Posted by muttley600

Ant particular reason why you ask? Are you looking at anything?

Just half thinking, at the moment, but I'd definitely like to pick one up at some stage. I've been getting into jazz more and more, and I think that spurred my interest.

[Milnoque]

Originally Posted by chazba

If you want to get up close and personal about it, you'll have to go to Gruhn in Nashville or Elderly in Lansing and get your hands on a few of each type. Start w/ a Gibson ES-175 as a good example of the laminate top. Next, check out a Super 400 or an L-7 or a Johnny Smith, all primo carved-top instruments. I'm sure that you will have all your questions answered. Oh yeah...don't forget the Byrdland. One thing to remember...all the Carved top axes will have a bunch of deluxe features such as ebony fb's. deluxe bindings, beautiful maple necks etc, all of which add to their value and vibe.

chazba

A pressed top is a different animal than a laminate top. Solid wood (typically spruce) is heated and pressed into the arched shape rather than carved. This construction method is not as strong as carving but saves on materials. Because of the internal stress imparted, the sound tends to have more emphasis on the midrange and can be lacking in nuance. As with most discussions of this type, exceptions are not exceptional. These can be very good sounding instruments. Many , not all, Gibson L-50s were made using this method. A pressed top L-50 versus an L-7 from similar years would be a fitting comparison.

[TWANGthang]

Originally Posted by muttley600

No in another thread you said that laminate doesn't "vibrate" as much. That is incorrect.

In short the mechanics and physics of acoustics isn't as simple as that. There are many misconceptions about how sound is made and propagated that was all I was pulling you up on and it was nothing personal. If you remember I did it with lots of smilies and for me, lots of tact.

The question of is one better from an acoustical or dynamic range point of view is concerned is a different one.

well, kick me for forgetting enough smileys!!!
all better?

I guess I'm still confused.. if the laminate vibrates as much, how is it the tone or volume is less, as generally thought?
I think we'd all agree that a solid top is louder and more toneful than a laminate.
There just be something causing that is what I'm getting at.
If it's not the amount of vibration.. what's left?

thanks!
TWANG

[Milnoque]

I've never heard of a quality maker attempting a premium acoustic archtop with a laminated top. I suspect one could produce surprising volume. It would be more difficult to make it toneful.

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by TWANGthang

well, kick me for forgetting enough smileys!!!
all better?

I guess I'm still confused.. if the laminate vibrates as much, how is it the tone or volume is less, as generally thought?
I think we'd all agree that a solid top is louder and more toneful than a laminate.
There just be something causing that is what I'm getting at.
If it's not the amount of vibration.. what's left?

thanks!
TWANG

As I've kind of eluded to the whole acoustics thing is complex. The deal with this is that a spruce top and a laminate top can and do vibrate quite freely and there isn't a whole lot of difference between the amount that they can and do vibrate. The crucial thing is what happens to those vibrations, how they are coloured and influenced by the material properties of the top itself. A couple of things to think on first. The mass and stiffness of the material is important, it allows vibrations or sound waves to travel through the top and then subsequently into the air around.

A spruce top has widely different properties in all directions of the grain. A laminate top has similar properties in most directions. Sound waves travel through a spruce top differently as a result.

You suggest that a spruce top is somehow inherently louder this isn't necessarily the case. All things being equal in terms of the mass and stiffness and dimensions of the plates the key thing to examine is the way energy is lost as the sound waves propagate through the top plate. This brings us onto our old friends volume and sustain, or more correctly amplitude and decay. A spruce top the plate typically loses the energy of the sound wave more slowly than a laminate plate and the attack at the start of the note is slower to peak. The same is true of the decay. The result is that you often have a more even sound from a spruce top. The attack of a laminate plate is fast and so is the decay. The result is brasher more brittle sound. Thats the basics.

The note is also coloured by the amplitude and degree of the upper partials or harmonics that are present in all musical sounds. It's these that give each sound it's unique properties. Spruce has been used for years because it not only has a high stiffness to mass ratio and good strength but it also imparts very favourable harmonic partials to the sound. The harmonic partials imparted to the sound of a laminate plate are not as complex or varied. They are in fact pretty generic in many ways. Now there is nothing wrong with a laminate top but the harmonics and dynamics of the material itself just don't allow for the same variety of sound that a spruce top does.

A good spruce top will always beat a ply or laminate top in that regard and you only have to look at flat tops for examples. Spruce good, laminate more generic. Just examine some of the early Yamaha FG series of flat top guitars. The early spruce topped ones sound great and are still sought after. The later laminate topped ones identical in all other ways are not so desirable. Archtops are no different.

If you run your archtop through a big amp and play at volume this may not be vitally important to you. If you play and record in a more low key way it might well be worth the extra.

Once again I'm not knocking laminate tops just pointing out that they handle the energy of the sound wave or vibration in exactly the same way. I have measured it in the past. It is how the more subtle properties of the top plate effect the overall sound that is key. The actual energy of the vibrating string that is lost to either type of top is the same and the resulting vibrations are just about the same too. What is different is the way that sound wave is coloured and delivered to our ears.

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by 32-20-Blues

Just half thinking, at the moment, but I'd definitely like to pick one up at some stage. I've been getting into jazz more and more, and I think that spurred my interest.

Nice one, who you been listening to? What sort of sound are you gunning for at present? That will dictate a lot about whether it is worth the extra for a spruce top. With some sounds and players the extra isn't worth it. Sometimes it's critical to the sound.

[TWANGthang]

thanks muttley

TWANG

[32-20-Blues]

Originally Posted by muttley600

Nice one, who you been listening to? What sort of sound are you gunning for at present? That will dictate a lot about whether it is worth the extra for a spruce top. With some sounds and players the extra isn't worth it. Sometimes it's critical to the sound.

Well, it all started nice and simple when I was listening to Wes Montogomery and Charlie Christian, but then it took a turn towards the more left-field, with Bill Frisell and Marc Ribot. Oh, and Louis Stewart, although I don't know how well-known he is outside of Ireland.

I've seen Marc Ribot get some great sounds out of an ancient, battered archtop with a P90 in it. Presumably for something like this, a laminate would be fine, right?

[Milnoque]

I love P-90s on archtops!!!

In case you've never seen how the pickup was mounted on Charlie Christian's ES-150 the mounting assembly added alot of weight. The added weight served to dampen the acoustic properties of the guitar. Acoustically they sound neither lively nor rich.

I bet a laminated archtop would suit your needs quite nicely. Alot of great jazz has been played on Gibson ES-175s. Ibanez Artcores seem like good starter jazz boxes. Go for it!!

[Fusioninspace]

So are these differences primarily noticed in an acoustic setting? ... as in, no amp?

So if you're playing through any kind of pickup/amp, it seems (to me) the differences would be less pronounced. In either case, I could certainly understand some subtle differences in sustain/attack/etc. But wouldn't the overall tone be pretty much dictated by the pickup/amp set up?

If a person is looking for a "jazz tone" in an electric setting, I've heard some extremely convincing jams with even a strat. From a players perspective (assuming the same sound), the biggest difference for comping and jazz lines might be more in the neck than the body...

Just my 2 pennies. Why do we even have pennies anymore anyway? Muttley, what do you guys use for pennies down there?

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by Fusioninspace

So are these differences primarily noticed in an acoustic setting? ... as in, no amp?

So if you're playing through any kind of pickup/amp, it seems (to me) the differences would be less pronounced. In either case, I could certainly understand some subtle differences in sustain/attack/etc. But wouldn't the overall tone be pretty much dictated by the pickup/amp set up?

If a person is looking for a "jazz tone" in an electric setting, I've heard some extremely convincing jams with even a strat. From a players perspective (assuming the same sound), the biggest difference for comping and jazz lines might be more in the neck than the body...

Just my 2 pennies. Why do we even have pennies anymore anyway? Muttley, what do you guys use for pennies down there?

Thats true to a point about any of this amplified and recording thing. The more you do to the chain the more you lose or alter the original sound and it's dynamic. It's certainly true that if you wack the sound through a pushed amp and play at volume your going to lose a good deal of the differences between any two contrasting sounds. Eventually it all just goes to "noise".

For good examples of a decent full archtop sound with that spruce thing going on Check out Martin Taylor ot John Pizzarelli. They play Vanden and Benedetto respectively and both make excellent guitars. Careful with Pizzarelli though he has and does use a laminate top on occasion as far as I'm aware. What you should be able to hear is a good deal of acoustic "wood" in the sound. Its hard to describe but you can definitely hear an acoustic tone in there. I can list a bunch more players if anyone is interested,

We use pennies here still.

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by 32-20-Blues

Well, it all started nice and simple when I was listening to Wes Montogomery and Charlie Christian, but then it took a turn towards the more left-field, with Bill Frisell and Marc Ribot. Oh, and Louis Stewart, although I don't know how well-known he is outside of Ireland.

I've seen Marc Ribot get some great sounds out of an ancient, battered archtop with a P90 in it. Presumably for something like this, a laminate would be fine, right?

Yeh, all those are pretty much uncomplicated electric jazz sounds. One thing I would say is that you can always get that deep electric jazz tone with a spruce top. It's pretty much impossible to do it in reverse. That may be something worth thinking about when the time comes.

I saw Louis Stewart at the Cork jazz festival a few years back and was lucky enough to have a chat with him at one of the sessions he was on. A nice guy and a great player. Very underrated.

[32-20-Blues]

Originally Posted by muttley600

Yeh, all those are pretty much uncomplicated electric jazz sounds. One thing I would say is that you can always get that deep electric jazz tone with a spruce top. It's pretty much impossible to do it in reverse. That may be something worth thinking about when the time comes.

I saw Louis Stewart at the Cork jazz festival a few years back and was lucky enough to have a chat with him at one of the sessions he was on. A nice guy and a great player. Very underrated.

Thanks for the advice, I'll most certainly bear it in mind. When I get the funds together, would it be cool if I asked you about the particular models I'm looking at?

Yeah, Louis is a great guitarist. He taught a friend of mine, and by all accounts he's an absolute gentleman.