Mastering for CD vs. vinyl

[timthetortoise]

If this has been discussed before, please be so kind as to point me in the right direction.

My band is currently working on finishing up our record and as we get closer and closer to mixing/mastering, I started thinking about pressing. Ideally, I'd like to do a 1000 copy run on CD, and 200-500 on vinyl. However, I was wondering if there is a somewhat set way to master audio for vinyl. I know Google is my friend on this subject, but I'd like to get some opinions from here too, as sometimes you guys are able to put things in a more down to earth manner instead of being technical for the sake of technicality rather than necessity.
Any advice or links would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Tim

[Massive Master]

As much as I'm in the "don't master your own mixes" corner, leave vinyl to the professionals, period.

If you're looking for "mixing no-no's" they aren't much different than just making a good mix. Sure, you don't want gigantic phase issues, you don't want the kick drum off to one side (unless you want the needle jumping out of the groove on every hit) - Just make the best mix you can and send it in. Of course, include a note of "If anything is obviously goofy..." so he'll call you if he finds any "show stoppers."

[Seafroggys]

Yeah, vinyl mastering is one of those uber artforms....unless you want to seriously get involved with it, don't try it.

[Massive Master]

Well, if he has a lathe, he's more than welcome to go nuts on it. My point is that it's usually a bad idea to second guess the vinyl guy... Mix it, make it the way you want it, send it off.

[timthetortoise]

Ah, I always had the idea that the vinyl mastering you're talking about was different from actual mastering, and that audio would have to be mastered before being sent anyway. *Learns something new every day*
That's simple enough. Thanks.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by timthetortoise

Ah, I always had the idea that the vinyl mastering you're talking about was different from actual mastering, and that audio would have to be mastered before being sent anyway. *Learns something new every day*
That's simple enough. Thanks.

Mastering for vinyl *is* different, and for that reason it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to do any pre-masteing other than the standard fades/crossfades, song order/spacing and perceived playback volume balancing between songs. But as far as the specifics required for vinyl pressing, that's best left to the engineer cutting the stamper.

G.

[Massive Master]

Mastering, by definition, is the assembly of a replication master compliant to the medium.

"Back in the day" it was never about "changing the sound" - It was about creating the master while changing the sound as little as possible (in theory, it should still be that way), evening out the levels, adjusting gaps & sequencing and carefully rendering the final master from which all copies would be made.

Now, to some people, it means "making the mixes really loud."

That all said -- There are plenty of occasions when a project comes in that is also slated for vinyl and the client wants me to make a "vinyl friendly" version. But most of the time, I'm already making "vinyl friendly" versions anyway - except that they're too loud, so the one I send to the vinyl guy is at a 'more normal' level.

But in any case - although the "duties" of the mastering engineer have changed over the last 20-odd years, the "prime directive" hasn't changed. Create a technically compliant master that will translate to the widest array of playback systems. Everything else - The 'creative' changes, the volume boosting, etc., etc., etc., are all icing on the cake. Not the cake.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by Massive Master

Mastering, by definition, is the assembly of a replication master compliant to the medium.

John, I think I've finally figured it out. The new lay-definition of "mastering" is:

Fixing a bad mix and then breaking it again.



G.

[timthetortoise]

Hm. So I guess "mastering" is more a collective of different parts of making the final product. I always considered mastering making the mix come alive, then called song order/fades/preparation for CD "arranging." Guess I can just call it all mastering then

[BushmasterM4]

One the same subject. I bought Metallicas new album (vinyl) thinking it would be better than the butchered (brick walled) cd. Well I was wrong, its just as worse. They must have just sent the cd mix to the pressing plant. I guess I need to get the guitar hero version

[Seafroggys]

Originally Posted by BushmasterM4

One the same subject. I bought Metallicas new album (vinyl) thinking it would be better than the butchered (brick walled) cd. Well I was worng, its just as worse. They must have just sent the cd mix to the pressing plant. I guess I need to get the guitar hero version

That's a disappointment, usually they do a different master for vinyl releases.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by Seafroggys

That's a disappointment, usually they do a different master for vinyl releases.

It just goes to illustrate; bad mastering can cripple a decent mix, but even the best mastering can't redeem a crappy mix.

Think of it like this:

If you make a great dish using great ingredients cooked right, sometimes just a little salt and pepper at the end before plating it is the perfect finishing touch. This is good mastering done to a good mix.

But if you over-season it at the end, you can ruin it - or at least make it worse. This is what bad mastering does to a good mix.

But if you use lower-quality ingredients to make the dish, and your cooking technique or recipe are not up to snuff, all the seasoning in the world added at the end may cover some flaws, but it will never make it taste great. This is the equivalent of trying to use mastering to spice up a weak mix.

The best way to approach it IMHO is to treat the tracking and mixing processes as if there were no such thing as mastering. The less one learns to depend upon the mastering stage to spice up the mix, the more they'll actually get out of mastering.

G.

[BushmasterM4]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

It just goes to illustrate; bad mastering can cripple a decent mix, but even the best mastering can't redeem a crappy mix.

Think of it like this:

If you make a great dish using great ingredients cooked right, sometimes just a little salt and pepper at the end before plating it is the perfect finishing touch. This is good mastering done to a good mix.

But if you over-season it at the end, you can ruin it - or at least make it worse. This is what bad mastering does to a good mix.

But if you use lower-quality ingredients to make the dish, and your cooking technique or recipe are not up to snuff, all the seasoning in the world added at the end may cover some flaws, but it will never make it taste great. This is the equivalent of trying to use mastering to spice up a weak mix.

The best way to approach it IMHO is to treat the tracking and mixing processes as if there were no such thing as mastering. The less one learns to depend upon the mastering stage to spice up the mix, the more they'll actually get out of mastering.

G.

Couldnt agree more.

[Massive Master]

Originally Posted by timthetortoise

Hm. So I guess "mastering" is more a collective of different parts of making the final product. I always considered mastering making the mix come alive, then called song order/fades/preparation for CD "arranging." Guess I can just call it all mastering then

Sometimes, mixes do "come alive" during the mastering phase. Often, actually. But it's not something you can be "told" how to do - Either you're listening to the mix and you know what to do with it or you don't. It's not like someone can say "throw (whatever) EQ on it with (these settings) and then run it through (this compressor) with (these settings) and your mix will sound great" -- It just doesn't work that way.

[EDIT] - Sorry about that side-rant -- I thought there was one of those "how do you master?" questions in there earlier -- I was thinking of another thread. [/EDIT]

Arranging is arranging the parts of a song - Verse, chorus, etc.

Tracking is actually recording the parts.

Mixing is - Well, *mixing* the parts. If the mix isn't "coming alive" then find out why.

Sequencing the tracks (what you might also call "arranging" to some extent) is choosing he order and spacing of the tracks. Sometimes established before the mastering phase, sometimes during.

Mastering is the assembly of the production master, along with whatever final audio tweaks are necessary to allow the project to translate to the widest possible array of playback systems. Sure, sometimes the audio changes dramatically. But hopefully the mixing engineer wouldn't even send them out if they weren't sufficiently "alive" already.

[timthetortoise]

Originally Posted by Massive Master

Sometimes, mixes do "come alive" during the mastering phase. Often, actually. But it's not something you can be "told" how to do - Either you're listening to the mix and you know what to do with it or you don't. It's not like someone can say "throw (whatever) EQ on it with (these settings) and then run it through (this compressor) with (these settings) and your mix will sound great" -- It just doesn't work that way.

[EDIT] - Sorry about that side-rant -- I thought there was one of those "how do you master?" questions in there earlier -- I was thinking of another thread. [/EDIT]

Arranging is arranging the parts of a song - Verse, chorus, etc.

Tracking is actually recording the parts.

Mixing is - Well, *mixing* the parts. If the mix isn't "coming alive" then find out why.

Sequencing the tracks (what you might also call "arranging" to some extent) is choosing he order and spacing of the tracks. Sometimes established before the mastering phase, sometimes during.

Mastering is the assembly of the production master, along with whatever final audio tweaks are necessary to allow the project to translate to the widest possible array of playback systems. Sure, sometimes the audio changes dramatically. But hopefully the mixing engineer wouldn't even send them out if they weren't sufficiently "alive" already.

Guess I'm coming off as a little more amateur than I actually am. My mixes tend to turn out sounding pretty good for the gear I'm working with, and usually translate well from system to system. I'm becoming more adept with mastering every day and (think I) have the basics of it down. Just haven't done a mix that really mattered for vinyl yet (the only one I've done that went to vinyl was one where the band wanted it to sound trashy and pumping. Great) and wanted to make sure of what I need to do. Now I know: don't need to do a thing! Makes the whole thing much easier for me So basically I should get a PQ sheet made, specify any extra stuff and that's about all they need? Because that sounds a little too easy to be true : \

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by timthetortoise

Now I know: don't need to do a thing! Makes the whole thing much easier for me So basically I should get a PQ sheet made, specify any extra stuff and that's about all they need? Because that sounds a little too easy to be true : \

You'll still need to sequence the album, set fades/crossfades, and - very important - get the album sounding like a homogeneous album and not just a random playlist of discreet songs. This includes mostly getting the proper perceived playback volume for each song and having those perceived volumes more or less consistent - unless otherwise desired - throughout the whole album. This can also include achieving a similar consistency in "tone/timbre" between songs - especially important when the tracks were recorded in different locations, or in sessions widely separated in time, or where different gear or engineers were used.

G.

[Ironklad Audio]

Originally Posted by timthetortoise

Hm. So I guess "mastering" is more a collective of different parts of making the final product. I always considered mastering making the mix come alive, then called song order/fades/preparation for CD "arranging." Guess I can just call it all mastering then

from what i understand, the mixes were already smashed flat when the ME got them...

[dodgeaspen]

I'd love to try to press my own record.