Presonus: marketing gone insane!

[mshilarious]

You know, I used to own some Presonus gear and I kinda liked it. But they've let their marketing department go way too far:

Originally Posted by Presonus

8 XMAX Class A Preamplifiers
The DigiMax D8 includes eight custom-designed high-voltage, discrete, XMAX Class A microphone preamplifiers for all types of microphones.

All XMAX preamplifiers are built with the same three elements:

High Voltage - The XMAX preamplifier runs on power rails of 30V. Most off the shelf op amp based designs run on power rails of 10V to 18V. Higher voltage power rails deliver more headroom, deeper lows, smoother highs and an overall fuller sound.

Discrete - No op amps. Only transistors, resistors and capacitors. Op amps add noise, coloration and harshness to a signal. Discrete designs deliver ultra low noise and transparency.

Class A - When a circuit is running in Class A mode the circuit is always in an "on" state operating at its optimal voltage requirements. Class A mode has zero crossover distortion and delivers purer, clearer and more musical sonics than class A/B designs which are found in most op-amp circuits.

OK, let's take these one by one. High voltage--is that running on +/-30V or just +30V? They don't really say, but they are comparing it to opamp pres which will run on +/-15V, or 30V. That's a minor point though.

The statement about discrete circuits is utter crap. What the hell do they think is in an IC opamp? "Transistors, resistors, and capacitors". And most discrete pre circuit ARE opamps. Opamp is a topology, not a chip. "[IC] Opamps add noise, coloration, and harshness"? Really? Is that why you've been using them in so many of your more expensive products for so many years? And how come your pre isn't any quieter than some IC pres I can buy?

More to the point, how are you gonna do a quality job on 8 channels of discrete circuits + converters for $500 retail? I mean, your old M80 had eight channels of ICs (with transformers) and it was like $1600. Sure, it's possible to do a better performing discrete circuit, but it takes a lot of attention to detail, and a lot of parts that will need selection.

Without hearing the pre, I can see one consequence of an apparent lack of attention to detail: CMRR of only 55dB. That's terrible. An IC with laser-trimmed resistors (such as the OPA134 the M80 used), should kick the crap out of that spec, which makes me wonder what other effects component tolerances are having on this design.

Finally, the BS on class A. Whether an opamp output crosses over to the B range of its class AB depends on the current load. For a line-level load, it is very likely class A, so their point here is moot. Lots more here:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-54768.html

[kidvybes]

...that's funny...I just sold one of the original MP20 mic pres, the best features of which were Jensen transformers and "socketed interchangeable Op Amps"...Burr Browns Ops on one channel, Linear Technologies Ops on the other made for a very viable preamp...

[MCI2424]

Originally Posted by mshilarious

You know, I used to own some Presonus gear and I kinda liked it. But they've let their marketing department go way too far:



OK, let's take these one by one. High voltage--is that running on +/-30V or just +30V? They don't really say, but they are comparing it to opamp pres which will run on +/-15V, or 30V. That's a minor point though.

The statement about discrete circuits is utter crap. What the hell do they think is in an IC opamp? "Transistors, resistors, and capacitors". And most discrete pre circuit ARE opamps. Opamp is a topology, not a chip. "[IC] Opamps add noise, coloration, and harshness"? Really? Is that why you've been using them in so many of your more expensive products for so many years? And how come your pre isn't any quieter than some IC pres I can buy?

More to the point, how are you gonna do a quality job on 8 channels of discrete circuits + converters for $500 retail? I mean, your old M80 had eight channels of ICs (with transformers) and it was like $1600. Sure, it's possible to do a better performing discrete circuit, but it takes a lot of attention to detail, and a lot of parts that will need selection.

Without hearing the pre, I can see one consequence of an apparent lack of attention to detail: CMRR of only 55dB. That's terrible. An IC with laser-trimmed resistors (such as the OPA134 the M80 used), should kick the crap out of that spec, which makes me wonder what other effects component tolerances are having on this design.

Finally, the BS on class A. Whether an opamp output crosses over to the B range of its class AB depends on the current load. For a line-level load, it is very likely class A, so their point here is moot. Lots more here:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-54768.html

Hey, I have talked for years here and argued how discreet and Op amp designs can be great or not great. The marketing buzzword IS "discreet" and op amp gets the bad rep. They are just jumping on the marketing bandwagon and will sell a pile of them. I find Presonus stuff to be total middle of the road stuff. Anyone can do better for the dough.

[Waffleness]

High voltage pre-amp eh? Surely by IEEE definition thats a voltage of above 1000V, and by european standards probably 11kV?

Wow, some dangerous kit there!

[SonicAlbert]

It's just marketing hype, I don't find any reason to get too irritated over it. You'll find similar stuff coming from virtually any manufacturer of almost any type of product.

The "class A" thing is definitely open to debate, and a lot of companies are calling their gear class A based on a kind of loose definition of it. Again, one just has to be informed on the subject and not take the advertising jargon too seriously.

[arcaxis]

I'd love to see Presonus have a TV ad done like this guy

Use your imagination to translate your favorite gear into this ad....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkuRe...eature=related

[Paj]

Mighty putty . . . available cheaper and for decades at auto parts stores as "Gas Tank Sealer."

Paj
8^)

[timthetortoise]

Company uses a bunch of buzzwords to appeal to unwitting consumers. News at eleven.

[XLR]

Yeah, this ad is worse than most of the sort.

And even more annoying is when you hear dopes repeating this stuff as fact on forums or sales weasels at audio retailers. ...which happens a lot.

[Supercreep]

Yeah, but will it "warm up" my recordings?

[Dogman]

Originally Posted by Supercreep

Yeah, but will it "warm up" my recordings?

Yeah, in the Summer...

[reklus]

Presonus is a company that seems to have a double existence. They're crap at quality control, masters of double talk, make decent harware with shit software, ignore tech support requests, but they're happy to fix the problems that you find if you talk to the right people.

The interesting bit about the Firestudio tube is that it's supposed to be stackable with the Project for up to 32 tracks IO. That hasn't happened due to driver problems...Which is typical.

I've got a question related to the Tube Pre party:

This is a question with a bit of a lead in, so some patience...
My experience with "real" tube stuff is pretty limited, but what little older tube stuff I've played with all has a completely different character than these "tube pre" boxes that run on 12volts.

I've got some cheapy decent sounding faux tube pres (The presonus bluetube and a few Behringer tube pres) that I bought because I was looking for something that I could use to create some of my weird distortion effects and I stack preamps in various orders to get different sounds for my noise projects. I got them because I got some great prices and I had a bit of extra cash but not enough for something major.

The universal trait I've discovered with these low voltage tubes is a complete lack of any syrupy thick gorgeously old school sounds (for lack of a better phrase).

I hear a lot of buzzing and neato harmonics, but nothing that sounds remotely tube+huge transformer to me.

It seems like you could emulate real tube sounds on an IC easier and include a cheap tube for effect. (the craig anderton tube fuzz I built a few years ago comes to mind)

My question is: Why? Why does everyone make these cheap tube pres that sound nothing like a real tube amp? It seems like at least one company would have made a low end tube pre that at least tried to sound tubey instead of more transistor than transistor?

[MOFO Pro]

Originally Posted by reklus

My question is: Why? Why does everyone make these cheap tube pres that sound nothing like a real tube amp?

So they can sell a cheap tube amp... and they do... thousands of them

[XLR]

In addition to the marketing hype angle that MOFO said, I think cheap tube pre's are popular also because they're able to smear the sound in a way that masks brittle or edgy qualities that plague beginners' home recordings.

toobs... mmMMMMmmm.

[SonicAlbert]

Originally Posted by reklus

I hear a lot of buzzing and neato harmonics, but nothing that sounds remotely tube+huge transformer to me.

You said it all right there, nailed it. Do you see a huge transformer in any of these cheap tube units? No, of course not. The sound you are talking about has as much or more to do with the transformer than the tubes.

Great gear costs money. It cost money in the old days and it costs money now. There's really no shortcut to that.

[soldierone]

Originally Posted by reklus

I've got some cheapy decent sounding faux tube pres (The presonus bluetube and a few Behringer tube pres) that I bought because I was looking for something that I could use to create some of my weird distortion effects and I stack preamps in various orders to get different sounds for my noise projects. I got them because I got some great prices and I had a bit of extra cash but not enough for something major.

That's a great idea! Are you distorting keyboards like that?

[reklus]

Originally Posted by soldierone

That's a great idea! Are you distorting keyboards like that?

Keyboards, samples, other effects, vocals and guitar. I've done it in the past to great result, but right now I'm in a dry spell musically. What I do is distort the input then lower the output, rinse repeat. You get some amazing harmonics even with shitty gear. It's nice because they've all got line+mic outs that you can use for controlling levels. XLR to TRS adapters are handy things in a setup like that.

[omtayslick]

Originally Posted by XLR

In addition to the marketing hype angle that MOFO said, I think cheap tube pre's are popular also because they're able to smear the sound in a way that masks brittle or edgy qualities that plague beginners' home recordings.

toobs... mmMMMMmmm.

Yup. You pretty much nailed it.

[reklus]

Originally Posted by XLR

In addition to the marketing hype angle that MOFO said, I think cheap tube pre's are popular also because they're able to smear the sound in a way that masks brittle or edgy qualities that plague beginners' home recordings.

But that's not really the tubes, is it? That's whatever that is actually doing the amplification before or after the tubes in most cases, right? There's often an IC that makes a tubish sound and the tube is just there for harmonic distortion from what I can tell from reading the specs of most of these things. Example: My wife has a really great sounding high power, lower cost Hartke bass amp that has a tube emulation circuit that sounds more tubish than "real tubes" do these days. I've heard cheap Peavey valve sound stuff that sounds tube-y too. Course that might be back to the whole giant transformer idea.

Also, XLR, your answer hits a certain nerve. If these mask brittle edges, isn't that technically an improvement in sound quality? I know that it's not audio transparency, but any means that lower end users can use to make stuff that sounds good with little to no investment has got to be better than nothing.

It's probably not going to be amazing, but it wouldn't anyway and at least it won't hurt the ears of the few listeners.

My point is not to disagree with you, but to argue that following your argument, maybe they do serve a very beneficial purpose, not to add tube warmth, but to save the listener's ears and to help low end users not get used to a horribly brittle sound as the norm.

[XLR]

Originally Posted by reklus

But that's not really the tubes, is it?...

On the Bluetube starved-plate pre I have it's the tube. With the tube circuit knob at "0" it sounds just like a Mackie 1202 VLZ pre.

If these mask brittle edges, isn't that technically an improvement in sound quality?

Agreed. Fuzzy is better than brittle. Double edged sword though I think as it's better to get rid of the brittle in the actual sound-in-the-room instead of masking it. And in many cases I'd bet that a couple hundred bucks spent on 703 or rockwool panels to use as makeshift gobos would get rid of the a huge chunck of the brittle quality. Unless the source itself really just sounds bad.

[reklus]

Originally Posted by XLR

On the Bluetube starved-plate pre I have it's the tube. With the tube circuit knob at "0" it sounds just like a Mackie 1202 VLZ pre.

That's true, actually I wasn't thinking about this right. On the Behringer Vintager Series (which I bought because it's perty and was $40) there're knobs to increase/decrease tube sound.

Agreed. Fuzzy is better than brittle. Double edged sword though I think as it's better to get rid of the brittle in the actual sound-in-the-room instead of masking it. And in many cases I'd bet that a couple hundred bucks spent on 703 or rockwool panels to use as makeshift gobos would get rid of the a huge chunck of the brittle quality. Unless the source itself really just sounds bad.

Sometimes a couple hundred bucks is $150 too much. I agree about room treatment, but sometimes it's not your room and sometimes you're unable to find rockwool panels (I have no idea where to find them in Providence, RI and I checked around alot).

Don't forget a lot of people just want a decent sound and don't know what the path to that is and Guitar center folks will tell you when you're starting out about TOOOOOOOOBBBBSSSS...

Don't get me wrong I'm not defending these preamps, just kinda questioning the "These things really suck" reaction. They may suck, but they're probably better than anything else in the super low budget range.

The Presonus Firestudio Tube thing I still don't understand. They put limiters and tubes on two channels. These channels are also instrument channels. I don't get what you could do with this that you couldn't do cheaper with a Firestudio/Firepod and a tube pre. The Firestudio Tube is pricey as hell.

They should do something like their original Digimax with a Firestudio chipset. 8 channels with decent compression and metering, ADAT/Spdif in, firewire. That'd be worth something instead of putting crap tubes in there.

[Supercreep]

Fuzzy may be an improvement over brittle and edgy, but fuzzy don't stack.

[reklus]

Originally Posted by Supercreep

Fuzzy may be an improvement over brittle and edgy, but fuzzy don't stack.

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring to the fact that if you take low end gear, run it through fuzzy sounding preamps and do that over multiple generations, you'll get a garbagey mess?

[WhiteStrat]

Originally Posted by reklus

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring to the fact that if you take low end gear, run it through fuzzy sounding preamps and do that over multiple generations, you'll get a garbagey mess?

Yep. I'd say that's what he meant.

[dgatwood]

MsH, it's Marketing Gone Wild. See thousands of barely competent market droids as they show you....

*shivers*