Amp settins for recording?

[TylerDrums109]

So i was under the impression you dial in your typical settings and mic that sucker up...but i guess i was WAY wrong....i was told low gain and bass with boosted mids will sound GREAT when you double up your guitar tracks...is this true?...right now i am micing my flextone 2 that has an eminence wizard speaker with an sm57....tips on settings? thanks

[famous beagle]

Originally Posted by TylerDrums109

So i was under the impression you dial in your typical settings and mic that sucker up...but i guess i was WAY wrong....i was told low gain and bass with boosted mids will sound GREAT when you double up your guitar tracks...is this true?...right now i am micing my flextone 2 that has an eminence wizard speaker with an sm57....tips on settings? thanks

In general, yes, lower gain (than most people would think) ends up sounding bigger.

However, my experience deals mostly with master volume-less amps, so I can't give too much advice on modeling amps and the like. But I've certainly experienced the "less gain sounds more ballsy" effect for sure.

57s are the workhorse; I use them almost exclusively for amps.

[Sonixx]

Originally Posted by famous beagle

In general, yes, lower gain (than most people would think) ends up sounding bigger.

can you possibly post some examples showing this?

Originally Posted by TylerDrums109

So i was under the impression you dial in your typical settings and mic that sucker up...but i guess i was WAY wrong....i was told low gain and bass with boosted mids will sound GREAT when you double up your guitar tracks...is this true?...right now i am micing my flextone 2 that has an eminence wizard speaker with an sm57....tips on settings? thanks

what type of tone/genre are you after?

some thoughts...

• source tone is paramount. don't plan on fixing the mix
• learn how to dial the amp.
• learn how to make very, very small adjustments to the amp setting and mic placement
• learn the tone locations on the speaker and how mic placement left/right to/fro affects the captured tone
• practice micing a lot
• find some relevant DI tracks and use those to send to the amp so you can practice dialing the amp and practice mic placement
• learn how many speakers sound different. this can be make or break
• different mics... different tones.
• also take a DI when you track the gtr... if possible

maybe not your cup of tea, but here's a heavy tone reamp with an AEA R92 ribbon I purchased lately...

[Farview]

The 'lower the gain and boost the mids' advice is prevelant because so many people make the same mistake with their guitar sounds. Namely, having way too much fuzzy gain and the mids scooped to death.

What most guitarists tend to do (until they know better) is try to make the sound coming out of their amp sound like what they hear on their favorite CD. What they don't consider is that the sound on the CD was mic'd up with a mic that colors the sound, sent through a mic preamp that colors the sound, EQ'd, mixed, mastered AND filtered through the EQ settings on their home stereo (which, more than likely, will have the mids scooped and the lows and highs boosted).

So, imagine mic'ing your home stereo playing your favorite CD and running it through all that processing, it would end up sounding like crap. So starting out with a guitar sound that already sounds like the CD is obviously not the way to go.

So, when the guitar sound has too much gain and not enough mids, turning down the gain and boosting the mids is a good idea.

[Tadpui]

Wow Farview, I typed this before dinner and didn't end up hitting submit until now. I think we were on the same page here (and Sonixx, your edits added some very helpful advice as well):

Oh great, here we go again...

We already spent 4 pages of another thread defending the credibility of "less distortion, more mids" as a remedy for beginners recording distorted guitars who end up finding out (just like our new friend TylerDrums did) that the way an amplifier sounds to ears in a room is different than how an amplifier sounds to a microphone stuck right up against the grille cloth.

A close mic picks up more of the fizziness of preamp distortion than ears in a room do. Decreasing the gain somewhere in your signal chain before the power section of the amp will help alleviate this. My recording rig is currently dismantled so I can't provide the "picture" of a recording, but I hope the preceding "1000 words" will suffice.

It's a tried and true way to remedy one of the most common points of dissatisfaction of beginner home recordists who mic a guitar amp. So when we throw that out first, even without actually hearing Tyler's current distorted guitar tone, there is a pretty good chance that it will actually help. Maybe it won't help. All it takes is a very small amount of effort to see if this technique helps your particular situation. Once knobs are turned, you can always turn them back.

[Dani Pace]

What and how a mic "hears" isn't the same as your ears. What we hear as a little distortion (from turning up the gain or using a stomp box) is what a mic hears as a lot of noise. Experiment with recording at different settings (on your amp) and listen to the playback, after a few tries you should find the setting that is cloce to what you are looking for. Once you get cloce then experiment with mic placement to find the "sweet spot" where the mic hears what you want to hear. It takes a while to get the hang of micing an amp but the more you do it the easier it gets.

[Farview]

Another pitfall that people can fall into is confusing 'sound' or 'tone' with the feel of the instrument when playing through that sound. A lot of guys like the feel of the instrument when the distortion is way too high because it smooths out their dynamics. The answer to that is compression. If you stick a compressor/sustainer pedal in front of the amp, you can achieve the feel without as much distortion.


The difference between the room sound and what the mic hears is the reason why I have the cabinet in another room. I tweak the amp settings listening to the monitors in the control room. It doesn't matter what it sounds like in the room, it only matters what it sounds like recorded through the mic.

[famous beagle]

Originally Posted by Sonixx

can you possibly post some examples showing this?

This is a recording I made when reviewing the PRS Starla for a guitar magazine. There's a clean one called "PRS Starla with Bigbsy" and there's another one called just "PRS Starla" that starts off clean on the neck and then goes to crunchy on the bridge.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...?bandID=328768

I plugged straight into my 60s Gibson GA-5 Skylark. The amp is about 10 watts and has a volume control and that's it. The volume was on about 8.

For the beginning of the "PRS Starla" example, I had the neck pickup on, with the volume on the guitar rolled down to about 5. Then I rolled the volume on the guitar up full and switched to the bridge pickup.

Enjoy!

Edit: I miked it with a 57 near the center of the cone about 1 inch from the grill cloth, into an M-Audio DMP3 pre, into my Yamaha AW16G

[DrewPeterson7]

Originally Posted by Sonixx

can you possibly post some examples showing this?

Oh good lord, lol, not this again, lol.

What amp model are you using? What ARE your current settings, anyway? I think the "be careful with the gain" advice is ESPECIALLY true with Line6 gear, as my (admittedly limited) experience is that they seem to model their amps with noticably more gain than the original, particularly the high gain stuff.

So, if for example you're running the "Insane" model with the gain on 7 or 8 and you're not using it with, say, a telecaster with a singlecoil pickup about an inch off the strings, then yes, turning the gain down will most likely help your recorded tone.

There's obviously going to be a point of diminishing returns, where your tone essentially becomes clean, but before that point, it's worth mentioning that distortion has the effect of compressing the guitar signal and squashing the dynamics, which can sometimes be good (think Santana), but for tight, aggressive heavy guitar you still want to preserve some attack, which will make the guitars sound "punchier" in a busy mix.

[Sonixx]

Originally Posted by DrewPeterson7

Oh good lord, lol, not this again, lol.

yes again...

here's the scenario...

Poster A: Do A and you'll get great tone. I get great tone. My tone is awesome.

Poster B (me): Can you please post something so I can hear what you're talking about...

Generally no replay for awhile...

Poster A: I can't right now or just a general blast of shit that I'm full along with support from fellow posters... who also never post jack, but all agree with said Poster


Look Drew... this place is full up with a lot of opinions about how to on everything under the sun, but very few doers willing to do the simple... posting examples to support their claims. Words just don't do it totally for me when it comes to describing tone. I want to hear it.

[Sonixx]

Originally Posted by famous beagle

This is a recording I made when reviewing the PRS Starla for a guitar magazine. There's a clean one called "PRS Starla with Bigbsy" and there's another one called just "PRS Starla" that starts off clean on the neck and then goes to crunchy on the bridge.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...?bandID=328768

I plugged straight into my 60s Gibson GA-5 Skylark. The amp is about 10 watts and has a volume control and that's it. The volume was on about 8.

For the beginning of the "PRS Starla" example, I had the neck pickup on, with the volume on the guitar rolled down to about 5. Then I rolled the volume on the guitar up full and switched to the bridge pickup.

Enjoy!

Edit: I miked it with a 57 near the center of the cone about 1 inch from the grill cloth, into an M-Audio DMP3 pre, into my Yamaha AW16G

I did enjoy that. I rebuilt a GA-5 for a friend. That's a great little amp.

Thanks...

[Texsunburst59]

Here's my sounclick page. Look through and check out all the different recordings of the amp on there. I agree with the less overdrive and more mids statements. Another thing that is key to getting a good tone is the mic placement on the speaker. You have to experiment with different placements till you hear what sounds good to you. Another very important component is how hot the signal is in the recording. I like to set the guitar signal just on the verge of red lining so I can get a sound I can work with and not have to EQ or crank it just so it can be heard in the mix. Anyway here's the link to my soundclick page.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...&content=music

[famous beagle]

Originally Posted by Texsunburst59

Here's my sounclick page. Look through and check out all the different recordings of the amp on there. I agree with the less overdrive and more mids statements. Another thing that is key to getting a good tone is the mic placement on the speaker. You have to experiment with different placements till you hear what sounds good to you. Another very important component is how hot the signal is in the recording. I like to set the guitar signal just on the verge of red lining so I can get a sound I can work with and not have to EQ or crank it just so it can be heard in the mix. Anyway here's the link to my soundclick page.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...&content=music

Hey Tex,

Some nice stuff on there. Those songs that your son wrote need some lyrics on them!

[Moonrider]

Originally Posted by TylerDrums109

So i was under the impression you dial in your typical settings and mic that sucker up...but i guess i was WAY wrong....i was told low gain and bass with boosted mids will sound GREAT when you double up your guitar tracks...is this true?...right now i am micing my flextone 2 that has an eminence wizard speaker with an sm57....tips on settings? thanks

Here's a link to the bible of recording heavy guitar. Slippy's a piece of work, and one of the nicest, most helpful people I've ever corresponded with. He's also stone crazy. Enjoy.

http://badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html

[DrewPeterson7]

Originally Posted by Sonixx

Poster A: I can't right now or just a general blast of shit that I'm full along with support from fellow posters... who also never post jack, but all agree with said Poster

Which is better than overdubbing yourself playing against a Tool track as an example of how you're right, how, exactly? I finally got around to listening to your lateralus track, and honestly I have no idea if you know what you're taking about, simply because even by popping out one of the earbuds I listen to from the office, I still couldn't entirely block out the professionally mixed, mastered, and produced recording that, as it so happens, features one of the greatest drummers I've ever heard. Real apples to apples comparison there.

Anyway, that's neither here nor there. Nor do I retract my statement that anyone new to recording heavy guitars who's plugged into a Line6 would lose nothing by TRYING to lower the gain on his amp.

Whatever, though. I'll give you a proper from-the-ground-up comparison clip sometime this weekend if time permits, but for now here's a rough demo I'd put up on my ftp for feedback from a few buddies on another forum. The mix isn't the greatest, I was pretty damned hung over when I recorded the leads (which I just improvised anyway), and the rhythm track's a bit sloppy (I'm a shitty rhythm player to begin with, and I was working quickly just to get an idea down. I'm working on pretty budget gear (presonus firepod, bluetube DSP pre), and using sampled drum hits to build beats, which frankly don't sound that great. so, there's a whole slew of reasons you're going to have at your arsenal to tell me how much more this sucks than your "here's me overdubbing one channel of guitar against a Tool recording" clip.

But frankly, it's the internet, and I don't care.

http://www.drewpeterson.org/Reaper%20ribbon2.mp3

Fire away, dude. This was a Rectoverb combo running through a Recto 2x12 with a SM57 and a Nady RSM-4 ribbon close-mic'd, in Modern mode with the gain at about 4, maybe. I had a modded TS9 out front, but it was set more as a clean boost/EQ than a source of additional gain - typically, I set the gain JUST above 0 so there's the slightest hint of crunch on a clean channel, and the level at unity. This was cut with a Hot Plate in the loop, at an apartment-friendly volume. The guitar in question was an Ibanez Universe UV7PWH.

I'm not 100% happy with the rhythm tone (and not at all happy with the performance, but whatever, it's a songwriting demo), and I was really going for more of a hard rock tone than an all out metal tone, but whatever.

So, now when you come back and post about how much my tone sucks and yours rules, I can go back to not really caring, with a clean conscience, and continue to point out how laughable I think it is that you won't take a good suggestion unless someone posts clips.

[famous beagle]

Originally Posted by DrewPeterson7

Which is better than overdubbing yourself playing against a Tool track as an example of how you're right, how, exactly? I finally got around to listening to your lateralus track, and honestly I have no idea if you know what you're taking about, simply because even by popping out one of the earbuds I listen to from the office, I still couldn't entirely block out the professionally mixed, mastered, and produced recording that, as it so happens, features one of the greatest drummers I've ever heard. Real apples to apples comparison there.

Anyway, that's neither here nor there. Nor do I retract my statement that anyone new to recording heavy guitars who's plugged into a Line6 would lose nothing by TRYING to lower the gain on his amp.

Whatever, though. I'll give you a proper from-the-ground-up comparison clip sometime this weekend if time permits, but for now here's a rough demo I'd put up on my ftp for feedback from a few buddies on another forum. The mix isn't the greatest, I was pretty damned hung over when I recorded the leads (which I just improvised anyway), and the rhythm track's a bit sloppy (I'm a shitty rhythm player to begin with, and I was working quickly just to get an idea down. I'm working on pretty budget gear (presonus firepod, bluetube DSP pre), and using sampled drum hits to build beats, which frankly don't sound that great. so, there's a whole slew of reasons you're going to have at your arsenal to tell me how much more this sucks than your "here's me overdubbing one channel of guitar against a Tool recording" clip.

But frankly, it's the internet, and I don't care.

http://www.drewpeterson.org/Reaper%20ribbon2.mp3

Fire away, dude. This was a Rectoverb combo running through a Recto 2x12 with a SM57 and a Nady RSM-4 ribbon close-mic'd, in Modern mode with the gain at about 4, maybe. I had a modded TS9 out front, but it was set more as a clean boost/EQ than a source of additional gain - typically, I set the gain JUST above 0 so there's the slightest hint of crunch on a clean channel, and the level at unity. This was cut with a Hot Plate in the loop, at an apartment-friendly volume. The guitar in question was an Ibanez Universe UV7PWH.

I'm not 100% happy with the rhythm tone (and not at all happy with the performance, but whatever, it's a songwriting demo), and I was really going for more of a hard rock tone than an all out metal tone, but whatever.

So, now when you come back and post about how much my tone sucks and yours rules, I can go back to not really caring, with a clean conscience, and continue to point out how laughable I think it is that you won't take a good suggestion unless someone posts clips.

I don't know about the scuffle you have going with Sonix, but this sounded pretty good to me. Heavy tones aren't my thing, so I'm by no means an expert, but it sounded a lot better than many others I've heard.

P.S. The lead guitar melody reminded me of Satriani totally.

[Sonixx]

Originally Posted by DrewPeterson7

Which is better than overdubbing yourself playing against a Tool track as an example of how you're right, how, exactly? I finally got around to listening to your lateralus track, and honestly I have no idea if you know what you're taking about, simply because even by popping out one of the earbuds I listen to from the office, I still couldn't entirely block out the professionally mixed, mastered, and produced recording that, as it so happens, features one of the greatest drummers I've ever heard. Real apples to apples comparison there.

lol that you picked that one to take a swipe at me personally. I'll refrain from doing the same.. and thanks for at least taking a minute to listen to some of my clips.

I do quite a bit of reamping so copping tones is important.

Anyway, that's neither here nor there. Nor do I retract my statement that anyone new to recording heavy guitars who's plugged into a Line6 would lose nothing by TRYING to lower the gain on his amp.

who's asking you to retract anything?

But frankly, it's the internet, and I don't care.

http://www.drewpeterson.org/Reaper%20ribbon2.mp3

Fire away, dude. This was a Rectoverb combo running through a Recto 2x12 with a SM57 and a Nady RSM-4 ribbon close-mic'd, in Modern mode with the gain at about 4, maybe. I had a modded TS9 out front, but it was set more as a clean boost/EQ than a source of additional gain - typically, I set the gain JUST above 0 so there's the slightest hint of crunch on a clean channel, and the level at unity. This was cut with a Hot Plate in the loop, at an apartment-friendly volume. The guitar in question was an Ibanez Universe UV7PWH.

I'm not 100% happy with the rhythm tone (and not at all happy with the performance, but whatever, it's a songwriting demo), and I was really going for more of a hard rock tone than an all out metal tone, but whatever.

that sounds great. enjoyed it.

[Sonixx]

Originally Posted by DrewPeterson7

So, now when you come back and post about how much my tone sucks and yours rules, I can go back to not really caring, with a clean conscience, and continue to point out how laughable I think it is that you won't take a good suggestion unless someone posts clips.

wow... you're really confused and defensive. first, let's get this straight Drew, I never take liberties to be critical of peoples efforts, like you did with mine. I must have really struck a nerve on this one.

[Moonrider]

Drew, Sonixx. If you're gonna compare penis size, take it to the Cave, please.

[DrewPeterson7]

Originally Posted by Sonixx

wow... you're really confused and defensive. first, let's get this straight Drew, I never take liberties to be critical of peoples efforts, like you did with mine. I must have really struck a nerve on this one.

Naw, you just caught me on a shitty day at work. If you'll notice, that was posted about 4:45 on a Friday afternoon.

I was kinda blowing off steam and misdirecting it at you, so I apologize for that, but I DO think it's kind of silly to insist that any opinion someone gives on a recording website shouldn't be listened to unless that person also posts sound clips. Good advice is good advice, regadless of how many soundclips someone posts, you know?

Also, all I've heard of your work is that one clip you posted of a guitar overdubbed against a Tool track, and it's really tough to guage how much of that is you and how much of that is Adam Jones, you know? If you have anything else you want me to hear I'd happily listen, but that's all I've gotten to go off.

[Toker41]

Originally Posted by Tadpui

Wow Farview, I typed this before dinner and didn't end up hitting submit until now. I think we were on the same page here (and Sonixx, your edits added some very helpful advice as well):

Oh great, here we go again...

We already spent 4 pages of another thread defending the credibility of "less distortion, more mids" as a remedy for beginners recording distorted guitars who end up finding out (just like our new friend TylerDrums did) that the way an amplifier sounds to ears in a room is different than how an amplifier sounds to a microphone stuck right up against the grille cloth.

A close mic picks up more of the fizziness of preamp distortion than ears in a room do. Decreasing the gain somewhere in your signal chain before the power section of the amp will help alleviate this. My recording rig is currently dismantled so I can't provide the "picture" of a recording, but I hope the preceding "1000 words" will suffice.

It's a tried and true way to remedy one of the most common points of dissatisfaction of beginner home recordists who mic a guitar amp. So when we throw that out first, even without actually hearing Tyler's current distorted guitar tone, there is a pretty good chance that it will actually help. Maybe it won't help. All it takes is a very small amount of effort to see if this technique helps your particular situation. Once knobs are turned, you can always turn them back.

So what happens when you throw a room mic into the picture? I need to change the tone for the close up mic, but I want to capture the tone I hear with a room mic.

[Sonixx]

Originally Posted by Toker41

So what happens when you throw a room mic into the picture? I need to change the tone for the close up mic, but I want to capture the tone I hear with a room mic.

ribbon mics. most are figure-8 and positioned just right, they can do a great job of capturing what you hear. two ribbons in a Blumlein config can sound very nice.