Recording a band Live...couple of questions.

[rnelson]

Hi guys, I am planning on recording a band, myself included, live in a room.

I will have 10 inputs probably distributed like this.

5 -drums
2- guitars
1- bass
2- vocals

Anyway the main concern I have (and im asking because right now I have no way to test this) is that I will be routing the vocal signals to an amplifier (after they are recorded) so that they can be heard in the room. Will this cause a sort of infinite loop, where the amplified vocals go into the mic and are recorded again and again and again? or will it only be minimal bleed when using a dynamic mic?

BTW im using this setup because were basically just recording long jam sessions as opposed to fully produced songs. However I would like to experiment with this method because I usually love recordings done like this.

Also, any tips on instrument/amp/mic placement + overall instrument levels would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

[jmorris]

basically monitors is what you'll be using, thats ok but why not get some cheap headphones?

[rnelson]

Well basically because I wanna jam with my band, which includes singing, if it cant be heard in the room, its no use really; I would just record it later with a decent condenser in a proper booth and avoid bleed issues altogether.

Thanks for the response on the monitor question!

anyone else? other tips?

[NYMorningstar]

I record live situations and the main thing you want to be concerned about you didn't mention. The room itself and is going to dictate the sound you capture so spend a good deal of time on fixing it if you can.

If you don't have bass traps(absorption), your recording will come out bass shy especially in the areas where you have standing waves not to mention it will effect the performance. You can adjust things later on in the mix but that's not the place to fix it. You might be needing sound diffusers too.

I run the recording through a mixer, recording the separate tracks and then send a stereo feed to the PA. You don't want the PA sound to feed back into the mics so make sure you position them properly with the speakers to minimize the bleed. I use condensor mics on the acoustic instruments and overheads for the drums.

In small rooms you won't need floor monitors. Also, if you don't have a separate sound person to ride the faders make sure all the musicians know it's everyone's job to balance the mix.

[rnelson]

Thanks for the info!

I am very much concerned with the room. Truth is it is probably not great-sounding, but there nowhere else we can jam and moneys running pretty tight so expensive treatment is out of the question. We do have carpeting and have hung all sorts of sheets, pillows,etc...off the walls. This did help but its obviously not optimal.

Anybody have any ideas for homemade basstraps/diffusers, etc..?

Also, any tips on the specific placement of intruments, I am basically concenred with amp bleeding into drum OHs.

Thanks guys.

[NYMorningstar]

Use a mic with a hyper cardoid pickup pattern to minimize the bleed. Check out this forum http://homerecording.com/bbs/forumdisplay.php?f=20 for ideas on sound treatment

[BushmasterM4]

I record live bands and have the vocals piped through a PA in the same room. While there is bleed through, it is very minimal. And some of the bands get quite loud. I do have a headphone system too, but some people dont like to wear them. Go figure, it sounds awesome when you pipe the mix through them. Must be like the whole click track thing. Some can play to one some cant.

[jmorris]

rnelson,
I may have misunderstood your question. I was under the impression you would be tracking in a "normal" setup. ie. runnning everything into hd recorder,computer etc. As when I track a band ,everything is mic's and singers hear themselves sing in headphones.I assumed this and thought your question was just could vocals be sung through monitors/and would the bleed be a problem. sorry.
Jim

[Dani Pace]

Try standing twin bed size mattresses in the corners, not quite real bass traps but this does help. Spread amps as far as you can and try to avoid having them point in the same dirrection. Play at the lowest volume you can. Don't worry if your set up looks weird, you're recording audio not video. Be sure everyone can see what everyone else is doing as well as hear them. There are lots of other things you can try, these are just a few I have found helpful for live recordings.

[rnelson]

Alright guys thanks for all the info.

Jim, dont worry about the misunderstading man, its all good.

I think I will actually try the mattresses thing, cause I think i have 2 light ones in my house not currently in use. Just have to see if they fit without making the room too tight for us musicians.

Any other thoughts let me know guys.

Thanks!!

[bigtoe]

i do this with bands all the time.

the bleed you get in the vocal mic (usually mostly from the drums) is crucial to the overall sound. you'd be surprised how close you can to get to a (good) drummer to get the bleed right. when you set up the drums...set up the vocal mic. it's going to be 50% of your drum sound at least...

For some reason the guitars are helped by the bleed in the OH's more than they are hurt. of course this can limit your ability to punch...er...edit. (does anyone punch any more?) but as far as getting nice beefy guitar sounds? you're in like flynn.

For some bands/songs - the maximum volume in the room is dictated by the snare buzz...bastard snare buzz. if it's a hardcore band that is not a huge deal but for slower stuff with long legato bass notes...eh...not everyone wants to sound like a jimi hendrix record.

Get a mic splitter for your vocal mic and send one to tape and the other to an amp (get a radioshack transformer) i find using a little practice amp is easier than using a PA. why? i'm not sure...probably less boom and the little practice amp is more portable/moveable so you can point it at whoever is needing more vocal. for a splitter i use the whirlwind IMP, i think, whatever the splitter is called...about 80 bucks. it has been a real headache saver.

i used to dread doing all live bands with vocals. now i absolutely love it. it can go south but it is a nice challenge and it is now fun to tweak it as i get better at it...and the bands love it. when the band is moving - it really is music as it is supposed to be recorded...and they are done with their record fast. it's like pulling teeth...i mean in the good way: it's done before they know it.

once you get good at it it is not so good on your pocket book as an engineer though!

good luck...
Mike

[rnelson]

Hey mike thanks for the info.

Actually I love snare rattle in Hendrix records, Everytime I hear it it reminds me of all the people in the room and it just sounds nice to my ears. I also enjoy some tape hiss (I dont know im weird like that, hehe), but im recording digital and recreating it seems to defeat the purpose (kinda like im doing fake lofi just cause its cool, and that kinda sucks).

Anyway about the PA, i dont have one, I use a small SS amp designed for acoustic instruments and keyboards, it does the job surprisingly well and has 3 ins so I can get lead and backup vocals in there (although this gets a bit muddy).

The signal splitter seems like a great idea to avoid all the signal routing from my daw out to the vocal amp. Thanks man. Do you know of any with more than 1 input on them (so i can route all vocals through one signal splitter, i.e input 2 cables and output 4)

For the OH bleed, Ill probably put a high pass filter on em to sweep out a lot of the bleed (especially resonant or ringing bass notes) and maybe gate em, although I dont know if the gating will affect the general attack of the drummer on the cymbals.

Are gates fast enough for these purposes, or will I just be taking the hits away from my drummer?

Also, im curious as to why mastering this method can be hard for an engineers pockets? seems like a VERY economical way to record.

Anyways thanks so much guys for all the info, greatly appreciated!

[bigtoe]

yo- cool on the snare buzz. i like it as well a lot of the time. when the band does not...that's when it's hard to get rid of. and replicating tape hiss is not a bad thing. when i bought my hd24 i missed it!

i do believe folks make splitters that are more that 1X2. check whirlwind's site or full compass.

i find gates in these situations to be difficult to use. everything is bleeding into everything else so when the gate kicks on - the picture can collapse where that mic was open. make sense? it's particularly bad with the vocal mic and the overheads...

re: engineering cash. because once you get good it takes you far less time to record a record! time = money!

Mike

[rnelson]

hahaha yeah dont know why I didnt think of the time = money thing, I guess I was thinking that the faster and better you can record a band, the more bands you can record.

Thanks about the gate info it actually makes a lot of sense not to gate the OHs because of the ridiculous amounts of bleed coming through, I guess the entire recording would sound different everytime the drummer hits the crash, hehe.

Do you guys gate any drums? I was thinking about gating the toms or snare, since they're miced with dynamics, I thinking bleed might not be too much of a problem.

[bigtoe]

Originally Posted by rnelson

hahaha yeah dont know why I didnt think of the time = money thing, I guess I was thinking that the faster and better you can record a band, the more bands you can record.

true as well. the word of mouth once you do this with a passing grade raises your client # for sure...increase in volume. i've for sure seen increase in the past year for the type of bands that want this done in this way.

Laters!
Mike

[mixsit]

A couple quickies..
If you have an eq that you can patch into the vocal monitor amp it can help to notch out a few of the worst room and speaker resonance points. Basically you'd be doing the normal routine of reducing feed back points to optimize the monitor, but consider doing some extra roll off in the lower end (300-500 and below). Get everything in place, levels set, then 'ring it out (carefully push it to near feed back with someone testing the mics). It can sound a little thin in the monitor on it's own but these are tones where small room resonances live and aren't really needed to hear your vocal pitch and volume. Room tones are going to be in the tape in a big way no matter what but no need to feed them extra with the monitor loop.
Another thing to check out would be to do some of the heavy blankets (or the matrices if you can set them on their sides? on either side of the drum kit. There your getting the room deadening plus some isolation to and from the kit.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by bigtoe

once you get good at it it is not so good on your pocket book as an engineer though!

Don't forget, though; the better and faster you get at it, the more your time is worth and the more you can charge per hour. It doesn't cost the client any more because if it takes you 2 hours to do something at $25/hr, but only an hour to do it at $50/hr, the end bill winds up the same. They wind up with a better engineer for the same money, you wind up getting more money for less time, more time for more bookings, and better rep for better clients. Everybody wins!

G.

[bigtoe]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

Don't forget, though; the better and faster you get at it, the more your time is worth and the more you can charge per hour. It doesn't cost the client any more because if it takes you 2 hours to do something at $25/hr, but only an hour to do it at $50/hr, the end bill winds up the same. They wind up with a better engineer for the same money, you wind up getting more money for less time, more time for more bookings, and better rep for better clients. Everybody wins!

G.

nice theory and a good marketing pitch. doesn't work that way where i am in the slightest.

i agree it should...but it's far cry from reality here in cleveburg.

laters.

Mike