guitar body shielding material.

[MatchBookNotes]

I noticed that on some sites sell shielding kits, but can i not get the same or similar material from a box store or a hardware store?

[Light]

No, you can't, but you also don't need it. You can use aluminum foil and a spray adhesive to do the same job, and it works just as well. You also don't need a cap on the bridge ground. Just make sure all your shielding material is touching, that your pots are touching the shielding. It's really much easier to do a good job than most sites on the internet will tell you.

If you want to know more, use the search button. I've written enough on this one already.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[bongolation]

I'm still hunting cheap, conductive spray paint. The price of that carbon paint is outrageous.

At some point, there was a metalized copper automotive gasket paint that was supposedly conductive. I don't know if it's still around.

"Metallic" spray paint, like "aluminum" is not actually metallic nor conductive. It's a funny old world, huh?

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by bongolation

I'm still hunting cheap, conductive spray paint. The price of that carbon paint is outrageous.

At some point, there was a metalized copper automotive gasket paint that was supposedly conductive. I don't know if it's still around.

"Metallic" spray paint, like "aluminum" is not actually metallic nor conductive. It's a funny old world, huh?

Aluminum is fine for shielding so if you can fined a spray that has ali in it your ok. The reason I don't use it is that it's hard to get a good long term ground connection to it.

Your options for paint are this.
A pot of that is going to last you years. I use braided self adhesive copper foil to avoid continuity issues although they are probably just theoretical in most of the applications we use shielding for.

Here is a cavity I did just yesterday on an bass I was putting MEC active pickups in.

[bongolation]

Originally Posted by muttley600

Your options for paint are this.

See my first line in the previous message.

Cavity shielding is broadly misunderstood in so many ways. Among other claims, insisted upon by a major music producer (Sony, MGM, etc.) friend, is that cavity shielding degrades hi-frequency output in guitars, presumably by capacitance, though I find no major capacitance change on the bench. [shrug]

Shielding can do nothing for EMI, just ESI, anyway...and almost anything reasonably conductive will do the job as well as anything else -- if you can just get it to stay put and stay connected, as you say. I'll just continue my leisurely search for mildly-conductive spray paint. In my studio environment, shielding isn't much of a pressing issue.

It's extraordinarily unlikely that I'll ever part with the kind of money Stew-Mac wants for that stuff (or anything else they sell, come to that). Ouch, what prices...

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by bongolation

See my first line in the previous message.

Cavity shielding is broadly misunderstood in so many ways. Among other claims, insisted upon my a major music producer (Sony, MGM, etc.) friend, is that cavity shielding degrades hi-frequency output in guitars, presumably by capacitance, though I find no major capacitance change on the bench. [shrug]

Shielding can do nothing for EMI, just ESI, anyway...and almost anything reasonably conductive will do the job as well as anything else -- if you can just get it to stay put and stay connected, as you say. I'll just continue my leisurely search for mildly-conductive spray paint. In my studio environment, shielding isn't much of a pressing issue.

It's extraordinarily unlikely that I'll ever part with the kind of money Stew-Mac wants for that stuff (or anything else they sell, come to that). Ouch, what prices...

That is not expensive considering that that won't even buy you a decent night out these days and a pint tin will last you years. Of course us music industry types should be working for fuck all and giving our products away.

[muttley600]

Oh and if you really want the rattle can you can pay the same. Scroll down

http://www.lessemf.com/paint.html

[elenore19]

Originally Posted by muttley600

Aluminum is fine for shielding so if you can fined a spray that has ali in it your ok. The reason I don't use it is that it's hard to get a good long term ground connection to it.

Your options for paint are this.
A pot of that is going to last you years. I use braided self adhesive copper foil to avoid continuity issues although they are probably just theoretical in most of the applications we use shielding for.

Here is a cavity I did just yesterday on an bass I was putting MEC active pickups in.

That looks like a beautiful instrument....Any full pictures?

[dgatwood]

Heavy copper foil tape. You can buy the stuff in the garden section of any hardware store. Supposedly it keeps slugs out of your garden.

http://www.amazon.com/Slug-Snail-Cop.../dp/B000QD3BPW

It also works remarkably well as a high-conductivity material for shielding. No solder needed. Just press and stick it to the next piece and it should make a highly conductive connection.

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by elenore19

That looks like a beautiful instrument....Any full pictures?

Its not one of mine. It's a regular 5 string bass except now it has active onboard.

[Slowrider]

Originally Posted by Light

No, you can't, but you also don't need it. You can use aluminum foil and a spray adhesive to do the same job, and it works just as well. You also don't need a cap on the bridge ground. Just make sure all your shielding material is touching, that your pots are touching the shielding. It's really much easier to do a good job than most sites on the internet will tell you.

If you want to know more, use the search button. I've written enough on this one already.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Light is right.

[ausrock]

If you don't want to be bothered with a "paint", consider using an adhesive backed copper foil........readily available from any decent stained glass supplier

[Light]

Originally Posted by dgatwood

Heavy copper foil tape. You can buy the stuff in the garden section of any hardware store. Supposedly it keeps slugs out of your garden.

http://www.amazon.com/Slug-Snail-Cop.../dp/B000QD3BPW

It also works remarkably well as a high-conductivity material for shielding. No solder needed. Just press and stick it to the next piece and it should make a highly conductive connection.

And cost about 5 times what aluminum foil would cost, while not improving the result one bit.


Myself, I use shielding paint; but only because I shield enough guitars that I use up a can every couple of years, so my investment in each guitar in material and labor is maybe 1/10th of what it would be if I used anything else. If I had to buy a whole can of the paint for just one guitar, I wouldn't.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[NewAgeMuttLange]

I just used metal repair tape nd folded the ends under so they touched, then i used electrical tape to make sure all the folded edges stayed in contact with each other...

but my soldering skills suck so bad i have an entirely new buzzing problem ?(ghey!)

-Paul

--And the sad part is, I have tiny hands and I'm working with a strat... lets say space isn't the problem.. heh.

[MatchBookNotes]

thanks for the input guys, i think i'll attempt the aluminium foil first, i have highoutput pickups and the guitar never seems to be properly grounded even though i had it 'fixed' by the 'best' tech in town who now has my tube amp.

[bongolation]

Originally Posted by Light

And cost about 5 times what aluminum foil would cost, while not improving the result one bit.

There's also gummed aluminum foil tape. I have a roll of it I got somewhere.

The difficulty is getting the different pieces properly and permanently fused without the right tool. I have one of these, made specifically for electrically joining foil. Oddly, I got it from slide-guitar god, Roy Rogers, when we had overlapping day gigs in San Francisco about twenty-five years ago.

In general, people expect too much from cavity shielding, that it will cure problems that originate elsewhere, and are usually disappointed in the results -- or imagine magical improvement. I have more projects than I can do, so messing with that is far down on my list.

I want a (cheap) conductive spray paint for hitting the inside of active, plastic-cased effects and studio equipment where the shielding may be of more useful significance.

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by bongolation

I want a (cheap) conductive spray paint for hitting the inside of active, plastic-cased effects and studio equipment where the shielding may be of more useful significance.

Good luck with that. As has been pointed out to you by a few long serving pro's such a thing doesn't exist if you consider $30 dollars to expensive for a coverage of around 4 or 5 square metres. The cheapest rattle can will cost you the same. Light uses the paint so do I. We do this for a living and wishing it cost $5 isn't going to change anything. If there was a cheaper rattle can that worked we'd know about it.

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by bongolation

I want a (cheap) conductive spray paint for hitting the inside of active, plastic-cased effects and studio equipment where the shielding may be of more useful significance.

I just use copper tape for that. Of course I use enough that the $50 price of admission isn't daunting.

Conductive paint is only mildly conductive. It works OK on guitar because the signal level is high and expectations are low. For something more critical, I would want better shielding.

[bongolation]

Originally Posted by muttley600

If there was a cheaper rattle can that worked we'd know about it.

Such confidence!

I'll let you know when I find it. The gasket paint has Stew-Mac beat by about a factor of five in price and would work as well if it's still available. I just have to remember to go look when I'm by a real automotive supply place.

[muttley600]

Originally Posted by bongolation

Such confidence!

I'll let you know when I find it. The gasket paint has Stew-Mac beat by about a factor of five in price and would work as well if it's still available. I just have to remember to go look when I'm by a real automotive supply place.

As I say good luck with that. Believe it or not us luthiers do quite a bit of trade with automotive suppliers, always have done.

Let me know when you find it and I'll sort out a finders fee.

[Light]

Originally Posted by bongolation

The difficulty is getting the different pieces properly and permanently fused without the right tool.

No, it's really not hard at all. People always assume that the glue keeps the foil from conducting, but it doesn't. There MAY be just a slight bit of capacitance, but it's no more than a couple of picofarad - completely not an issue.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[dgatwood]

Originally Posted by Light

And cost about 5 times what aluminum foil would cost, while not improving the result one bit.

The shielding ability of a shield depends on the thickness of the metal and its conductivity. The conductivity of copper is a lot better (about half again more) than the conductivity of the same volume of aluminum, and the copper tape is generally orders of magnitude thicker than even the heaviest aluminum foil. Whether the improved shielding matters or not in your particular environment is a different question, of course, but if it doesn't matter, then chances are neither does the presence of the aluminum foil in the first place.

Besides, we're talking about under ten bucks for enough copper tape to shield a half dozen guitars here.... Unless you are manufacturing or reworking the things in large quantities, why cut corners on a couple bucks worth of shielding for a multi-hundred- or multi-thousand-dollar guitar? That just doesn't make sense to me.

[dgatwood]

Originally Posted by Light

No, it's really not hard at all. People always assume that the glue keeps the foil from conducting, but it doesn't. There MAY be just a slight bit of capacitance, but it's no more than a couple of picofarad - completely not an issue.

Depends on the adhesive and whether it is backed or not. The slug tape I described conducts just fine that way. Unfortunately, the copper tape I can buy at Fry's that is supposedly designed for use as trace material when taping out printed circuit boards doesn't!!! Talk about backwards....

[Slowrider]

If it has a thick adhesive, clean it off, and solder any joints for a good connection.

[famous beagle]

Originally Posted by dgatwood

The shielding ability of a shield depends on the thickness of the metal and its conductivity. The conductivity of copper is a lot better (about half again more) than the conductivity of the same volume of aluminum, and the copper tape is generally orders of magnitude thicker than even the heaviest aluminum foil. Whether the improved shielding matters or not in your particular environment is a different question, of course, but if it doesn't matter, then chances are neither does the presence of the aluminum foil in the first place.

Besides, we're talking about under ten bucks for enough copper tape to shield a half dozen guitars here.... Unless you are manufacturing or reworking the things in large quantities, why cut corners on a couple bucks worth of shielding for a multi-hundred- or multi-thousand-dollar guitar? That just doesn't make sense to me.

Originally Posted by bongolation

In general, people expect too much from cavity shielding, that it will cure problems that originate elsewhere, and are usually disappointed in the results -- or imagine magical improvement. I have more projects than I can do, so messing with that is far down on my list.

I'll just speak from personal experience. I have a basic old standard Strat with single coils. I used to get significant hum --- nothing drastic, but it was your typical single coil hum.

I used the aluminum foil method, and I taped the pieces together with electrical tape because I read that the glue wasn't conductive. (Light says differently, and I guess he would know, but I hadn't seen anyone say this at the time, so that's what I did.)

The results? Incredibly noticeable difference. My guitar is quieter than a humbucker guitar now. There's no detectable hum at all now, no matter which way I orientate my guitar with regards to fluorescent lights or whatever, whereas before, there was significant hum.

I did do two other things during this operation: 1) I star-grounded everything to the same point, and 2) I installed a treble bleed capacitor. Everything else remained the same.