Musician's Fiend: My experience

[Mr. Moon]

Hi. Here is a manifesto of my latest (and most likely last) attempt at a purchase from Musician's Friend. I have posted this in a couple of places online, so don't be surprised if it pops up somewhere else. I'm just hoping that someone else can avoid some of the difficulties I have run into to save time and money.

I pride myself on reading and following purchase agreements and have issues with folks who "test" guitars and other gear from online merchants, only to return them on the last day, and having no intention on keeping the items anyways. Sure there are times when you decide that something won't work, but then there are those folks who habitually misuse the return policies. Anyways, I'm not one of those folks, but I have received these returned items (guitars usually) when I have purchased "new" instruments, from Musician's Friend and other online dealers. While this does aggravate me, it has allowed me to get some great deals over the years when the support folks cut hundreds of dollars off the costs on future purchases in addition to sending me out another new item.

People ask: Why would you buy an expensive guitar online anyways, even with all these troubles?

Some of us, including myself, who live in certain areas (even larger metro areas like me) cannot always find high-end guitars locally to try out that are in decent shape ...or you have to "buy" the guitar before they'll ship it in, which is no different than buying online, except that you're more committed to the purchase and the return terms are sometimes pretty crappy.

Anyways, in the last 3 months or so I have bought 4 guitars from Musician's Fiend (yes, I know how clever that is!) and I've had to return three (3) of them due to *DEFECTS* and one (1) of them due to the fact that the case it shipped in was trashed. Musician's Fiend (MF) was really good about each and every return, mostly because I read and followed the terms of their purchase & returns agreement. Here's how the returns went:

Guitar #1 was an Epiphone G-400 with EMG's that had been shipped to me in the case (at my request), and the case had been damaged in shipping. Not to mention that the guitar itself was pretty cheap and sounded really "thin" and it just didn't work for me. MF was cool about this one!

Guitar #2 was an Epiphone prophecy which had a manufacturer's defect: the holes for the tailpiece anchors were routed too large in the factory, so the tailpiece would pull out whenever you tried to tune the guitar to standard pitch. A local Gibson-Authorized repair shop suggested that I return it, as a new guitar should not have that issue. MF was cool about this one too. They offered a price break on my next purchase.

Guitar #3 was a Les Paul Traditional. Read about it here:
http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=149348

MF was cool about this one, and offered me another price break for...


Guitar #4 was another LP Traditional. Read about it here:
http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=149563


After that, I was bummed. I ended up purchasing a Gibson Les Paul Historic '59 Reissue from Centre City Music in San Diego. They had full pictures of Les Paul's for me to choose from, and looked over the guitar for me while I was on the phone with them, and I ended up with the guitar of my dreams!!

Read about it here: http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=149753



OK so you think this is a *pro* MF post, right? Actually it is NOT!!

MF blatantly repeated to me that Gibson does not allow them to examine any of their guitars purchased from them to try to minimize piracy and such. I was convinced that MF was being square with me, especially when the MF rep I was dealing with said that he was going to have the guys in the warehouse open the box and examine the last LP regardless of Gibson's policy. I thought that was pretty great customer service, to say the least.

Well, then the strangest thing happened. Gibson USA contacted me after I emailed them about the problems I had with the defective Les Pauls. Long story short: I spoke with their QC people at length, and they told me that MF was misrepresenting the deal that Gibson has with their dealers. I won't go into specifics, but basically MF and all other Gibson dealers are *not* forced to keep the guitars sealed in the factory boxes, actually quite the opposite.

So, MF "adjusted & modified" the truth and sold me guitars that they never ever examined before selling them to me, even when they said the would. If they had, they would have noticed the defects and flaws on these instruments immediately and returned them to Gibson, and I would have received a quality instrument.

Anyways, because of this whole mess, the MF phone rep said that he credited me 50 bucks in-house credit for anything at MF purchased over the phone. I called them earlier today, and there has been *no* in-house credit applied to my account, of course.

And Gibson stood behind their product and did what they could to arrange it for me to hand pick a Traditional, since Musician's Fiend was unable to do so. So, I now have the Traditional that I was after too!!

Read about (and see pics of it) it here:
http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=150347

So, it all worked out well enough, I guess...

Well, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it, because I got no reason to lie (yeah)...

-mr moon

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moon

Hi. Here is a manifesto of my latest (and most likely last) attempt at a purchase from Musician's Friend. I have posted this in a couple of places online, so don't be surprised if it pops up somewhere else. I'm just hoping that someone else can avoid some of the difficulties I have run into to save time and money.

I pride myself on reading and following purchase agreements and have issues with folks who "test" guitars and other gear from online merchants, only to return them on the last day, and having no intention on keeping the items anyways. Sure there are times when you decide that something won't work, but then there are those folks who habitually misuse the return policies. Anyways, I'm not one of those folks, but I have received these returned items (guitars usually) when I have purchased "new" instruments, from Musician's Friend and other online dealers. While this does aggravate me, it has allowed me to get some great deals over the years when the support folks cut hundreds of dollars off the costs on future purchases in addition to sending me out another new item.

People ask: Why would you buy an expensive guitar online anyways, even with all these troubles?

Some of us, including myself, who live in certain areas (even larger metro areas like me) cannot always find high-end guitars locally to try out that are in decent shape ...or you have to "buy" the guitar before they'll ship it in, which is no different than buying online, except that you're more committed to the purchase and the return terms are sometimes pretty crappy.

Anyways, in the last 3 months or so I have bought 4 guitars from Musician's Fiend (yes, I know how clever that is!) and I've had to return three (3) of them due to *DEFECTS* and one (1) of them due to the fact that the case it shipped in was trashed. Musician's Fiend (MF) was really good about each and every return, mostly because I read and followed the terms of their purchase & returns agreement. Here's how the returns went:

Guitar #1 was an Epiphone G-400 with EMG's that had been shipped to me in the case (at my request), and the case had been damaged in shipping. Not to mention that the guitar itself was pretty cheap and sounded really "thin" and it just didn't work for me. MF was cool about this one!

Guitar #2 was an Epiphone prophecy which had a manufacturer's defect: the holes for the tailpiece anchors were routed too large in the factory, so the tailpiece would pull out whenever you tried to tune the guitar to standard pitch. A local Gibson-Authorized repair shop suggested that I return it, as a new guitar should not have that issue. MF was cool about this one too. They offered a price break on my next purchase.

Guitar #3 was a Les Paul Traditional. Read about it here:
http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=149348

MF was cool about this one, and offered me another price break for...


Guitar #4 was another LP Traditional. Read about it here:
http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=149563


After that, I was bummed. I ended up purchasing a Gibson Les Paul Historic '59 Reissue from Centre City Music in San Diego. They had full pictures of Les Paul's for me to choose from, and looked over the guitar for me while I was on the phone with them, and I ended up with the guitar of my dreams!!

Read about it here: http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=149753



OK so you think this is a *pro* MF post, right? Actually it is NOT!!

MF blatantly repeated to me that Gibson does not allow them to examine any of their guitars purchased from them to try to minimize piracy and such. I was convinced that MF was being square with me, especially when the MF rep I was dealing with said that he was going to have the guys in the warehouse open the box and examine the last LP regardless of Gibson's policy. I thought that was pretty great customer service, to say the least.

Well, then the strangest thing happened. Gibson USA contacted me after I emailed them about the problems I had with the defective Les Pauls. Long story short: I spoke with their QC people at length, and they told me that MF was misrepresenting the deal that Gibson has with their dealers. I won't go into specifics, but basically MF and all other Gibson dealers are *not* forced to keep the guitars sealed in the factory boxes, actually quite the opposite.

So, MF "adjusted & modified" the truth and sold me guitars that they never ever examined before selling them to me, even when they said the would. If they had, they would have noticed the defects and flaws on these instruments immediately and returned them to Gibson, and I would have received a quality instrument.

Anyways, because of this whole mess, the MF phone rep said that he credited me 50 bucks in-house credit for anything at MF purchased over the phone. I called them earlier today, and there has been *no* in-house credit applied to my account, of course.

And Gibson stood behind their product and did what they could to arrange it for me to hand pick a Traditional, since Musician's Fiend was unable to do so. So, I now have the Traditional that I was after too!!

Read about (and see pics of it) it here:
http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=150347

So, it all worked out well enough, I guess...

Well, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it, because I got no reason to lie (yeah)...

-mr moon

Well, you have to understand that MF is a volume dealer whose orders are all handled by computer from order taken until item out the door. It's not that they can or can't examine each item as per the manufacturer, it's that they can't afford to have their employees go and physically look at what they are selling because they'd have to spend 10X (or more) the time processing the order, and they can sell for what they can because they keep their overhead low. The person you are talking to may not even be in the same city as the warehouse from which they are shipping their goods. Some things are probably dropshipped from the manufacturer, which means that MF never physically had the item in their possession at all.

I've had to return a few things to them and they have always been very good about that, even when it was my mistake for ordering the wrong thing or not paying close enough attention to the product description. If you want to be sure what you are buying, go to a bricks and mortar store and hold it in your hands before you plunk down the cash. It will cost more, but that's the tradeoff.

[ch2os7]

Sorry about your trouble. I bet we've all had similar experiences with internet ordering whether it was with Musician's Friend or some other dot com. Mine was with Buy.com. I'll spare you the details. I asked to be removed from their database!
I've even had a few frustrations with MF but they've always been fair and willing to make things right.
I think Sweetwater inspects everything they ship. Maybe some others do too but for the most part, buying a guitar online is a roll of the dice.
I have read posts on this very bbs where someone would go into a music store and play a dozen guitars before they found one they liked.
As far as the Epi with the defective bridge (or was it tailpiece?) that seems like a quality control issue that should have been caught at the factory.
Like you, I believe returned items are sold as "new". I've received some things with obvious blems that were not sold as blems.
Who knows, maybe someone from MF will read your post and things will change.
Good luck in the future.

[ch2os7]

Sorry about your trouble. I bet we've all had similar experiences with internet ordering whether it was with Musician's Friend or some other dot com. Mine was with Buy.com. I'll spare you the details. I asked to be removed from their database!
I've even had a few frustrations with MF but they've always been fair and willing to make things right.
I think Sweetwater inspects everything they ship. Maybe some others do too but for the most part, buying a guitar online is a roll of the dice.
I have read posts on this very bbs where someone would go into a music store and play a dozen guitars before they found one they liked.
As far as the Epi with the defective bridge (or was it tailpiece?) that seems like a quality control issue that should have been caught at the factory.
Like you, I believe returned items are sold as "new". I've received some things with obvious blems. That's a bad deal. They should inspect "returns" for blems before they send them out again as "new".
Who knows, maybe someone from MF will read your post and things will change.
Good luck in the future.

[ch2os7]

Sorry about your trouble. I bet we've all had similar experiences with internet ordering whether it was with Musician's Friend or some other dot com. Mine was with Buy.com. I'll spare you the details. I asked to be removed from their database!
I've even had a few frustrations with MF but they've always been fair and willing to make things right.
I think Sweetwater inspects everything they ship. Maybe some others do too but for the most part, buying a guitar online is a roll of the dice.
I have read posts on this very bbs where someone would go into a music store and play a dozen guitars before they found one they liked.
As far as the Epi with the defective bridge (or was it tailpiece?) that seems like a quality control issue that should have been caught at the factory.
Like you, I believe returned items are sold as "new". I've received some things with obvious blems that were not sold as blems.
Who knows, maybe someone from MF will read your post and things will change.
Good luck in the future.

[toobalicious]

indeed, you arent alone.


http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=263388

[Zaphod B]

What the MF rep told you about inspecting guitars doesn't ring true for another reason.

Their high-end branch, Private Reserve Guitars, has individual pictures of each Custom Shop Gibson that they offer online. I have to assume that PRG (MF) is removing those guitars from their shipping boxes and cases and photographing them. Serial numbers and weights for each guitar are listed as well.

I've had much better luck than you with my guitar orders from MF. All have been keepers.

[ggunn]

It really boils down to this: with lowered cost you accept higher risk.

[Thurgood]

Hey GGunn! Sorry for your troubles. Disclalimer: (poo rtying) I am not rying to offend but it seems like major metro areas have wide selection. I have bought a few gtrsd over net and had generally good results (after local pro tweaked them a bit). I hope you enjoy your new stuff. Never ahd major dealings with MF but the stories (hearsay and testimonials) have genereally not good. You are commendable for your honesty in returning isntuments that are faughlty and not jsut using them for a solo occassion. Bravo to you! I look forward to bee'in in your local for research and hoping to graba crytal Flavolian happiness. Be well all. W.

[WhiteStrat]

Originally Posted by ggunn

It really boils down to this: with lowered cost you accept higher risk.

Very well put.

[Mr. Moon]

Hi Folks,

Thanks for all the replies and comments. What finally made me decide to vent online was when I called MF to see if they had applied the $50 in-house credit to my account and found that they had not.

The metro area I live in (Mpls/StPaul, MN, USA) is what I would consider to be a "larger" metro area, however due to the limited number of Traditionals available locally (they are backordered at most places for months) and/or the quality & condition of what is available, I had to look to the internet to get one. I thought I found a decent one locally, but after seeing the first one I received, I found that it was not nearly as nice looking at what MF was sending out. It's really a "catch-22" the way I see it. The high-end guitars that show up locally usually are *sold* or purchased immediately, so the only way to get something nice is to either have an "in" with a local shop or purchase (usually sight-unseen) online.

In my case, Gibson was the "good guy" because MF didn't get me a product in decent condition while Gibson stepped up to the plate and made it happen. So, if I'm coming across that way, then it is what it is. If you read my posts about the first Traditionals (posted up on the LP forum), you'll see that I was initially really supporting MF and very grateful, and then that changed. I did not enter into this with any kind of agenda other than getting a great guitar.

I now know that MF will *never* look at a guitar before they ship it, even if they have agreements in place with manufacturers to do so. I'm also quite sure that only a select few of the big dealers actually will (like Sweetwater), however, many of these other dealers were backordered for months on the guitar that I wanted at the time I originally ordered it. I know Sweetwater is one online dealer that pulls, inspects, and posts pictures and specs of their Gibsons, but they were backordered for more than 2 months when I started looking for one.

I'm not a fan of Gibson's QC agreement, however, if MF entered into the agreement with certain terms and conditions, I think they (and any other dealer who enters into the same agreement) should stand by it.

-mr moon

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by ggunn

It really boils down to this: with lowered cost you accept higher risk.

True, however I had to purchase it online for the reasons that I posted in the original manifesto, and not cost issues primarily:
Availability and quality issues locally. Unless you have an "in" with a local shop, all the nice ones are either already *sold* when they arrive or have been handled and damaged by the masses of young teens trying to play the latest *insert popular metal band name here* tune.



-mr moon

[Hard2Hear]

Originally Posted by ggunn

It really boils down to this: with lowered cost you accept higher risk.

Not necessarily true. I bet Saul at Center City gave a MUCH better price than MF or GC would. At least a few years ago I know he did.

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by Hard2Hear

Not necessarily true. I bet Saul at Center City gave a MUCH better price than MF or GC would. At least a few years ago I know he did.

Yes, Saul was *significantly* lower priced than even MF with all my credits and such ...*SIGNIFICANTLY* lower!! (hint, hint) ...And he opens them up and looks at them for you (hint, hint)!!!!

Problem was, he had several Traditionals also on backorder and they wouldn't be in for weeks/months. So, I said "well, what else you got?"

...And the rest is history!!

http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=149969


The bottom line:

CALL SAUL AT CENTRE CITY MUSIC before ordering anywhere else!!!!!

http://www.ccitymusic.com/



-mr moon

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by Thurgood

Hey GGunn! Sorry for your troubles. Disclalimer: (poo rtying) I am not rying to offend but it seems like major metro areas have wide selection. I have bought a few gtrsd over net and had generally good results (after local pro tweaked them a bit). I hope you enjoy your new stuff. Never ahd major dealings with MF but the stories (hearsay and testimonials) have genereally not good. You are commendable for your honesty in returning isntuments that are faughlty and not jsut using them for a solo occassion. Bravo to you! I look forward to bee'in in your local for research and hoping to graba crytal Flavolian happiness. Be well all. W.

Thanks, but the troubles weren't mine in this case; I wasn't the OP.

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by ggunn

Thanks, but the troubles weren't mine in this case; I wasn't the OP.

I'm the OP, but I'm also sorry to hear about ggunn's troubles...



Actually, from the content of Thurgood's post, I'm a bit concerned about whatever 'troubles" he/she may be having with "graba crytal Flavolian happiness" ...whatever that may be??!!







-mr moon

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moon

I'm the OP, but I'm also sorry to hear about ggunn's troubles...



Actually, from the content of Thurgood's post, I'm a bit concerned about whatever 'troubles" he/she may be having with "graba crytal Flavolian happiness" ...whatever that may be??!!







-mr moon

I've got no troubles; at the moment life is pretty damn good, thank you very much. ;^)

Crystal Flavola is the name of my band http://www.crystalflavola.com

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by ggunn

I've got no troubles; at the moment life is pretty damn good, thank you very much. ;^)

Crystal Flavola is the name of my band http://www.crystalflavola.com

Okey-dokey. THAT makes sense. Now I understand...

I'm also glad to hear that life is going well for you!

Rock on!!

-mr moon

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moon

Okey-dokey. THAT makes sense. Now I understand...

I'm also glad to hear that life is going well for you!

Rock on!!

-mr moon

And poultry's just another name for chicken, innit? ;^)

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by ggunn

And poultry's just another name for chicken, innit? ;^)

And turkey ...don't forget about the turkey.



-mr moon

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moon

And turkey ...don't forget about the turkey.



-mr moon

Me an' the wife was just talkin' 'bout how we was needin' some figgerines. ;^)

[Thurgood]

Sorry for the misread of the original post. My bad. GGunn, I was not thorough in preparaton of my reply and in no way intended insult to you or others. Lesson learned, read ALL before reply. I should know that. PM me for clarification.

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by Thurgood

Sorry for the misread of the original post. My bad. GGunn, I was not thorough in preparaton of my reply and in no way intended insult to you or others. Lesson learned, read ALL before reply. I should know that. PM me for clarification.

No harm, no foul.

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by ggunn

No harm, no foul.

Fowl?



-mr moon

[Mr. Moon]

Well, this whole thing has been an "interesting" experience, to say the least!!



However, the end result is that I have 2 new guitars that are both completely awesome, I love them both!! The hardest part of it now its trying to decide which one to play!

Traditional-style:




Or Historic-style:







-mr moon