Overproducing!! what the ...

[CyanJaguar]

I've been hearing this taboo called overproducing.
Usually the overproduced mixes are the ones that you hear on radio.

I want my stuff to be slick, slick, slick.

So what the heck is overproducing, and do you personally believe that a tune can be overproduced.

My opinion is that you can't get enough producing.
Whats yours? Please give illustrations and examples.

peace

[Blue Bear Sound]

You're overproducing when...

...you have 130 tracks of backing vocals, but you still feel you want a fuller-sound! (VV knows about this!)

...you feel "limited" by the unlimited number of tracks in ProTools

...your effects are louder than the main elements in the song

...you can never use enough "delay"

...the "only" way to get a great acoustic guitar sound is 24 mics spaced around the room, and another 10 close-mic'd.

...you start a vocal session with the words "take 1... out of 654"

...anything less than 73 rhythm guitar parts is "too simple"

...your engineer says "the studio's run out of patch cords!"

Bruce

[JFogarty]

Originally posted by sonusman


Is a movie ever "over directed"? Is a book every "over edited"? Is sex "over rated"?

Yes, Yes, and sometime, Yes. If a movie has very artsy shots, but you can't tell what the hell is going on. Or in the book, they just cut the hell out of the original book, and make it into a meaninless plot with no feeling. Or if have so much damn sex your nuts srivel from tiredness. Not saying that thats ever happened to me, but hey, it could happen.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally posted by sonusman
The problem with some of the things that Bruce listed is that they are seldomly the case in high quality sounding recordings.

Well DUH! I was TRYING to be funny!!

*sheesh* Good humour is lost on some people!!!



Bruce


(ok - fine, I'll stick to engineering instead of comedy!)

[lunkhead]

I think a better term would be "over-processed", for what you guys are talking about.

[VOXVENDOR]

Mutt lange.... Better known as Shania's Husband, and the producer of Ac/dc's Highway to Hell, Back and Black, For those about to rock we salute you, Def Leppard, High and Dry, Pyromania, Hysteria, Adrenalize...Foreigner 4, XTC, Heart, also The Cars, Heartbeat City..... Bryan adams, Waking up the neighbors, 18 till I die. Billy Ocean ???, Micheal Bolton,, Recently, the Corrs.. (Leave me breathless).....Britney Spears newest single, "The last to know", Backstreet Boys, and all Shanias work..... Aside from the ACDC, this is probably the best composed list of overproduction..... Mutt is the guy known for doing 130 tracks of background vocals... (ie..Def Leppard) and yeah, Mutt is the voice for Def leppards BV.... He is also known, for not letting guitar players play chords, and instead tracking each string seperately, and layering chords string by string. Drums have to be sampled and quantized, even the most solid player in the world isn't good enough for mutt's likings.....The only guy willing to mix these monstrosities, is usually, Mike Shipley.. Who is so picky, he eq's every syllable of vocals differently.. I would say, Mutt is the king of overproduction, and I still Don't think it's over the top, cause it's made him a millionare, and he has produced, and co-written, about 100 songs, which were in the top ten, and are now considered classic's....So I think it works... when I put on a Mutt Lange production, I can hear, that it's so much bigger, glossier, fatter and layered.. yet still remaning clean and seperated......as opposed to most other recordings.....to me everything else seems a bit empty, and lifeless...But then and again, I am biased, cause Mutt is my "Recording hero".......Joe

[VOXVENDOR]

Sorry bout the killer post above... let me sum it up for CyanJaguar......YEA!, i believe overproducing can be succsessfully achieved... Even though it's not everyones cup of tea, theres no disputing this fact, considering Mutt Lange's track record of hit albums.. I wouldn't call it taboo.. it is more popular in Commercial releases, than the under production method....If you want your stuff to be "slick", you gotta have the material, and the players... Cause one thing thats for sure, not even Mutt Lange can make "garage players" sound decent... Then when producing it, pay attention to every detail, Don't think of drums as a kit, think of them as individual instruments.. (I know it is opposite, of what others say, but you asked how to overproduce (in less words)... Same with guitar stings... seperate entities... keep everthing seperate.. I never "overdub".. I didn't buy a "multitrack" recorder so i can layer everything on 4 fucking tracks!!!!! I don't always use these methods, but if overproduction is your thing.. this is how.... Joe

[smellyfuzz]

I have thought about this overproducing topic a lot.
With so many different types of music out there being played on the
radio, who is to say one is over produced or not.

Enya's music is over layered & over layered, it seem to me that she is an artist
that would be completely lost if it were not for the big production of midi, many
tracks and reverb.

Her CD's are SO produced that she has stated the she wishes she could tour, but
her music is to difficult to reproduce live. Does this mean she is any less of an artist?
That she over produces her songs?

As for myself, when I compose a song, I do not start with guitar, then say"let's see
what happens when we add bass". In my head I already hear all the parts I want.
I feel that part of my writing process is the recording. Therefore, my songs are never
complete until all the tracks are down.

Some songs may only be a guitar & a vocal. Other songs, vocal, harmony vocals, 5 or 6 part
backing vocals, acoustic guitar, electric clean flange guitar, distorted guitar,
lead guitar, bass, drums, piano, strings, organ, tambourine, so on & so on...

I'm on your side Cyan, do it till it feels right.


Love
Sean

[tubedude]

What you call overproducing is actually done by using all tube patch cables. It makes all the difference. I have about a dozen for sale, if anyones interested.
I too, would like to get that sheen... I always thought about that one-note-at-a-time thing, but that would end up creating a harmony, basically, and I dont think it would ring the same way, especially on distorted guitars. I think its all eq tricks. The masters NEVER let up on thier eq knowledge.
Paul

[Rick Hammang]

I pleed gulty.

[MONTE]

I must admit that I often use the "over-produced" terminoligy. It's most often a dig on the artist instead of the producer though. What the hell are you supposed to do when you've got to put out a decent product that reflects your work and the band can't play their own instruments. You must resort to tricks and toys! As a working musician/engineer, I have as much interest in how talented a band is as I do how their product sounds. It does bother me a bit from a musical standpoint when the best aspect by far on a CD is the production. Mind you, I'M NOT SAYING THAT'S NOT IMPORTANT- just that it shouldn't stick out like a sore thumb. If it does, the artist should go back to rehersal or take some lessons before cutting the tracks. I think as a rule with some possible exceptions, some of the best performers and producers are not "noticed"....Just one man's opinion though!

[MONTE]

P.S. In short, "You can polish a turd, but it's still just shiny shit."

[nessbass]

I think overproducing is best described as inappropriate producing. There are bands that cannot be overproduced, because their music demands such and such production (e.g. Enya, I think her music only works this way). But on the other hand, there are bands, that can be badly overproduced. A band trying to get a dirty rock sound can be polished to death!

David

[CyanJaguar]

ok. I think I have got it.

So, when a song is excellently produced, with everything in the perfect space, and at the perfect volume, with perfect tone, it is referred to as master production.

But when a production has multiple elements that cannot hope to be reproduced live, like 1500 backing vox and 20 helicopters and 10 different crying baby samples and stuff like that, THEN it is overproduced.

I certainly see how stuff can be termed overproduced in that sense.

[lazyboy]

I like Nessbass's definition. I generally use the term to describe pop music that has an artificial sound to it. Humor me while I try to decribe it. It's an inaccessible sound, kind of like the package is too tight. You can hear it coming out of the speakers but its like it never really reaches you, it's just there. Real articulate, I know.

I can think of some rock examples, but, like I said, usually I hear it in radio pop (which I'm not well versed in) I hear it in Brittany Spears' voice. That new Janet Jackson tune doesn't sound overproduced to me.

Then again, I'm one of those guys who believes in the aesthetic charms of raw and less than stellar recordings.

[tubedude]

"You can hear it coming out of the speakers but its like it never really reaches you, it's just there."

Cool description. Kinda like its all airy, or something. I love it and hate it at the same time. The ones I like the best take the light airy stuff and weave it through some in-your-face sounds too. That sounds awesome. Do you know what I mean, or am I buzzing again?


Paul

[VOXVENDOR]

[QUOTE]But when a production has multiple elements that cannot hope to be reproduced live, like 1500 backing vox and 20 helicopters and 10 different crying baby samples and stuff like that, THEN it is overproduced.

I certainly see how stuff can be termed overproduced in that sense. [QUOTE]

Thats Why bands which put out "overproduced" material, play along to backing tracks..... Even Aerosmith...Motley Crue... and Van Halen.... Usually it's just background vocals or keyboards.... For instance, I saw Aerosmith about 2 years back, I had shitty seats beside the stage and they had a keyboard player hidden down on the floor beside the stage, doing the brass and the pianos, for their ballads.... So many times, i heard piano, or strings, and he wasn't even touching the boards....And the Backing vocals on "Love in an Elevator".... the Ohhhh-Yaaaa... Was only sung by 3 of the band members on stage, yet, we were hearing about 20 layers of perfect vox, coming out the stacks.... I have a Shania twain live thing, and I do believe she lip syncs, alot of the time... One song, "Black eyes, Blue tears" starts out with her singing very high, and her voice cracks in the middle of one word on the studio album.... Well guess what.. the live album, is identical (vocal wise), same crack, same place.....(that just ain't coincidence.... I seriously don't even think her band plays, exept for the drummer... I have studied this video many times, and it all just sounds like a carbon copy of the album (barring drums).....(The vocals are a tad different in certain places though)......

[VOXVENDOR]

Whats wrong with my quotes?..... they used to be fine, they used to go bold, and say who Im quoting, but now just just look like the above....If anyone can help me with this that would be awesome...........

[eclips1]

Originally posted by VOXVENDOR
Whats wrong with my quotes?..... they used to be fine, they used to go bold, and say who Im quoting, but now just just look like the above....If anyone can help me with this that would be awesome...........

Make sure you don't erase the bracets when you post them.


On the topic...
Fact: Sometimes less is more.
Opinion: It is up to whoever is working on the song to decide what is to much.

I try to remember this fact while I work on my music, because if I don't I go tooooo far with everything(esspecially automation and fx's)

I see alot of producers approach songs like"well this song is okay, but I can turn it into a masterpiece!" Then its bye-bye Jeckle and hello mr. Hyde. If its an okay song, then make it a quality sounding okay song. There is a feel to every song, and I think when producers stray away from the feel and turn it into something its not, the song becomes overproduced.

[VOXVENDOR]

Originally posted by eclips1


Make sure you don't erase the bracets when you post them.

Just thought I would try the quoting thing again...

[Wallycleaver]

If the song is changed because it will sell more records that way.
If the song is to be exploited by the Back door boys or what ever.
You would use the phrase "warm yet punchy"

[JoanisT23]

this is an article posted on jack endino's website called HOW TO OVERPRODUCE A ROCK RECORD! (sorry that its so damn long!

First, spend about a month on "preproduction", making sure that everything is completely planned out so that no spontaneity is necessary or possible in the studio. If there are no "hits" there, make the band collaborate with outside songwriters. Line up extra studio musicians who are better players than the band themselves, just in case.

Next, book the most expensive studio you can find so that everyone but the band gets paid lots of money. The more expensive, the more the record label will take the project seriously, which is important. Book lots and lots of time. You'll need at least 48 tracks to accomodate all the room mics you'll set up for the drums, all of which will be buried by other instruments later anyway, and for the added keyboard tracks, even if the band has never had a keyboard player. And for all the backing vocal tracks, even if the band only has one singer.

Then, record all the instruments one at a time, but make the drummer play to a click track for every song so the music has no chance to breathe whatsoever. That way you can use lots of MIDI gear. Do multiple takes of each song. Use up at least 30 reels of 2-inch tape. Take the best parts of each take and splice them all together. You might even use a hard-disk recording system like Pro Tools, then transfer it all back to analog two-inch. Spend at least two weeks just compiling drum tracks like this. You'll need to rent at least a half a dozen snare drums, and you'll have to change drum heads every couple hours. If you really do it right, the entire band will never have to actually play a song together.

Now, start overdubbing each instrument, one at a time. Make sure everything is perfect. If necessary, do things over and over until absolute perfection is achieved. Do a hundred takes if you must. If this doesn't work, get "guest musicians" in to "help out".

Don't forget to hire someone who's good with samples and loops so the kids will think its hip! Better get some turntable scratching on there too.

Be sure to spend days and days just experimenting with sounds, different amplifiers, guitars, mics, speakers, basically trying every possible option you can think of to use up all that studio time you've booked. No matter how much time you book, you can use it up this way easily. Everyone involved will think they're working very hard.

Make sure you rent lots of expensive mics and expensive compressors and expensive preamps so you can convince yourself and everyone else how good it's sounding. Charge it to the band's recording budget of course. Make sure you have at least two or three compressors IN SERIES on everything you're recording. Any equipment with tubes in it is a sure bet, the older the better. The best is early-1970s-era Neve equipment, old Ampex analog recorders, and WW2-vintage tube microphones, since everyone knows that the technology of recording has continuously declined for the past 30+ years. Don't forget to get some old "ribbon" mics too.

Make sure that by the time it's finished everyone is absolutely, totally sick of all the songs and never wants to hear any of them again. Oops! Now it's time to mix it!

Better get someone with "fresh ears" (who's never heard any of it before) to mix it in a $2000/day SSL room with full automation. Make sure he's pretty famous, and of course you have to fly to LA, NYC or Nashville to do this, because there simply are no decent studios anywhere else. Make sure he compresses the hell out of everything as he mixes it. Compress each drum individually and then compress an overall stereo submix of 'em. Make sure to compress all the electric guitars even though a distorting guitar amp is the most extreme "compressor" in existence. Compress everything else, and then compress the overall mix. Add tons and tons of reverb to the drums on top of all those room mics, and add stereo chorus on everything else. Spare no expense. Spend at least two weeks on it. Then take it home and decide to pay for someone else to remix the whole thing.

Then get some New York coke-head mastering engineer to master it, and make sure he compresses the hell out of everything again and takes away all the low end and makes it super bright and crispy and harsh so it'll sound really LOUD on the radio. (Too bad about all those people with nice home stereos.)

Oh-oh! Your A+R guy just got fired! Looks like the record will never be released!

[Prism]

ROFLMAO....

Isaiah

[MrZekeMan]

Originally posted by VOXVENDOR
Mutt lange.... Better known as Shania's Husband, and the producer of Ac/dc's Highway to Hell, Back and Black, For those about to rock we salute you, Def Leppard, High and Dry, Pyromania, Hysteria,

If Def Leppard's Hysteria is over produced, then I likes'a the overproduced sound.

The beauty of music is that different styles, sounds, even skill levels that are diametrically opposed to one another can both sound equally good.

Point in case: The above mentioned Def Leppard album. To me the sound on that album is incredible. The other end of the spectrum: On Keith Whitley's greatest hits they included a song "Tell Lori I love her". It sounded like he recorded it on the bus somwhere on a portable tape player with a built-in mic. (a slight exaggeration.)

Both are good. To me music is about emotion. I picture Keith, fighting the demons that eventually killed him. At sometime during his troubled life, he sat down and put
that song on tape in it's most preliminary stages of being written.

That may be an extreme example. But the point is, that you can enjoy, and like both.

That is a saving grace for me. I'll never be an Eddie Van Halen. But I don't have to be. There are plenty of non-virtuoso's out there that right and produce music that is very simple, yet it tugs at your heart strings. Or, it makes you happy. Or, for just for a moment it makes you feel really glad to be alive. Or, it moves you to tears, and cleanses your soul a little bit.

Such is the beauty of music. It's about the emotion..... and it is reached in many different ways.

Zeke

[Gidge]

Ive seen DefLeppard live so dont say it cant be reproduced (spare me all the comments about using recorded background vocals or whatever technique they use)....if you use a synth, you are utilizing technology...why not?....

And even if you cant recreate it live, why shouldnt it be done in the studio...thats like saying everything in the studio should be recorded live...one take...no overdubs....thats ridiculous.....

BTW KekeMan, I actually heard a rumor that "Tell Lori I Love Her" was actually recorded very similar to that....